Ammo usage

[FFE]

Game mechanics concerning ammo consumption are abstract, which is understandable. Yet, there're often many situations for which ammo points are being utilized on poor targets. The quality (morale) of a unit does reflect ammo consumption, but many times I notice my units burning ammo on very poor targets.

Infantry firing on targets > 100 meters tend to slow or cease their firing when their ammo levels reach 25 points. Infantry units with less than 25 ammo points will fire at moving or running targets if one presents itself. Units with > 25 ammo points blaze away at almost anything up to several hundred meters including unbuttoned armor and various targets of choice.

What I propose for CM2 is a code loophole to prevent massive expenditure of ammo points. A unit with several rifles shouldn't burn their ammo at targets > 250, yet the game reflects this and drawing long range fire tends to deplete a units ammo reserve.

Here're a few suggestions:

1)Infantry firing at a target > 250 meters should be excluded from ammo consumption. This does not apply to MG teams.

2)If the target only has 1 or 2 men, ammo consumption should be bypassed. A squad wouldn't waste all its manpower and resources to annihilate a few enemy men.

Currently there are two ways to stop an infantry unit from firing; Hide and Total LOS blockage. I'm not proposing micro-management, just some code for sensible ammo point consumption. Since ammo points are abstract, coding abstract bypasses to reflect modern and historical usage's of ammo shouldn't be out of line.

[Pvt.Tom]

I have a question, it is not at all unusual to have a large part of my forces run out of ammo before a 30 turn game is over, was it common for infantry in real life to run out of ammo after 30 min? (Now I know they have not run out of ammo but are low on ammo, but basically as far as useful firepower goes they are out of ammo.) If this were a common problem in real life you would think there would be lots o stories about troops running out of ammo which I have not found. Maybe I suck at this game but this is a big problem for me unless I:

A) Hide a Lot or

Keep a large part of my forces in the rear so they have ammo at the end

Neither of these options seems very realistic, how many company commanders said to their troops, I know 2nd platoon is getting killed up there but you stay here and save your ammo for later!!!! Come on. I just had one game where we decided to have a cease fire because the troops on both sides ran out of ammo and no one was shooting.

[FFE]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt.Tom:

...was it common for infantry in real life to run out of ammo after 30 min?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Generally it took a lot longer for infantry to run out of ammo, unless conflict broke out unplanned. Platoons often use ammo runners to gather additional ammo or head back to the local distribution point. Unfortunately this is not represented in-game. Reading non-fiction war diaries and some memoirs generally showed/displayed infantry running "low" on ammo after several hours of combat. Ammo runners and scavengers were a standard quo, necessary in all engagements. Making sure ammo was received at the front meant winning the battle.

Yet infantry can easily go through all their ammo in a few short minutes. Low Ammo is a very harsh condition. Low ammo squads will fire to defend themselves or fire at closing infantry, but they do so with a drastically reduced firepower. I ran a few tests with infantry advancing on infantry, with the defender zeroed out on ammo vs. 40+ ammo points. Advancing on low ammo infantry resulted in 50% casualties for the attacker and victory. Advancing on full ammo infantry resulted in 100% casualties (I considered routed/broken squads as full casualties).

I'd really like some stop-gap or true representation concerning ammo consumption. The defender in any given game can be bled of his or her ammo by a few infantry teams running amuck the field. Unless the defender is out of LOS or hidden, a few men will and can draw out massive amounts of lead. This is not only true for defense, but for meeting engagements. Depleting your opponents' ammo levels, while maintaining a respectable distance (150+ meters) will lead to an almost assured victory. Small squads of men (1 or 2 men remaining) can sap an entire platoon's worth of ammo in short order.

[ 05-03-2001: Message edited by: FFE ]

[JMcGuire]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FFE:

Depleting your opponents' ammo levels, while maintaining a respectable distance (150+ meters) will lead to an almost assured victory. Small squads of men (1 or 2 men remaining) can sap an entire platoon's worth of ammo in short order.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll do us the favor of getting this out of the way early:

"But that's gamey..."

[JasonC]

Be careful what you wish for.

Causalties in CM battles already run higher than they usually were historically. Much larger ammo loads would simply drive them higher still.

In reality, units were probably firing less often than they do in CM, and with lower average effect, over greater lengths of time. But the variance in effects of fire was higher than in CM.

It would not be realistic to raise ammo limits so high, that medium ranged small arms fire succeeded in eliminating troops in decent cover, before running out of ammo. That did not happen. The ammo limits thus operate in CM as an incentive to close, or a need to use other supporting heavy weapons, when facing infantry in cover. That is realistic.

MGs have much higher ammo limits. They are more capable of blazing away indefinately at range. That too is realistic.

Fire discipline - meaning especially holdign fire until close range - was definitely a real issue in infantry fighting in WW II. Units could not expect to blaze away at any range as long as they wanted.

As for ammo conservation, the game already provides ways of handling that. Hiding troops do not fire, and neither do running troops. Obviously if not in LOS men will not fire either. Using "run&hide" commands and appropriate destinations, it is possible to manage small arms usage in CM. And a hiding unit can e.g. use an ambush marker (including platoon HQ ones) to trigger a decision to open up if some gets close enough. Sneaking units will generally not shoot until the end of their move.

[Stalins Organ]

I thought sneaking units were more likely to fire than moving ones??

[Runyan99]

I have suggested this several times, but it does not hurt to do so again.

Tracking ammo for each weapon type in a squad would allow troops to fire organic LMGs at long distances, and save rifle and SMG ammo for close-in fighting.

Whatever solution is implemented, I hope that BTS will address this issue in some way.

[Moon]

While this might not be general knowledge it IS mentioned in the manual: at long ranges, ONLY the LMG of a squad is firing (thus the lower firepower rating which you see in the firepower range table of each unit) and this DOES cost only a fraction of an ammo unit (not a whole unit) already as it is in CM.

[Pvt.Tom]

I don't claim to know all the answers but the ammo system is very lacking IMHO, if infantry fire more than is realistic than why not make them fire less?

[Runyan99]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

While this might not be general knowledge it IS mentioned in the manual: at long ranges, ONLY the LMG of a squad is firing (thus the lower firepower rating which you see in the firepower range table of each unit) and this DOES cost only a fraction of an ammo unit (not a whole unit) already as it is in CM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? If it only uses a fraction of the ammo, does the unit fire a burst occasionally without reducing the shown ammo value for the squad? I have never seen that.

Even if it does, this long range fire will still eventually use up all of the squad's ammo. I would prefer to see most of the rifle and SMG ammo saved even after the squad LMG has shot its last belt.

[REVS]

It seems odd to me that you can buy an artillery spotter for, say, 100 points, and he comes with 200 rounds of ammo. However, you can in some cases crank that same ammo up to 800 rounds, and it costs you no more points. I find that it's with artillery that this ends up being the most damaging aspect of this anomaly. However, it's the same with everything else, too. You can crank up all your infantry, AFVs - you name it - to maximum ammo levels, and it doesn't cost you a point more in a "buy your own" scenario. I have a standing agreement with opponents to limit ammo levels to some predetermined level, especially for artillery.

It would be nice if, in CM2, the points levels allocated to any unit rose if they opted to arm themselves to the hilt with ammo.

[Olle Petersson]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

... at long ranges, ONLY the LMG of a squad is firing ... and this DOES cost only a fraction of an ammo unit already as it is in CM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not according to my tests.

I set up a platoon (can't recall exactly what type, but probably motorised panzergrenadiers) to shoot at assault boats. One boat for each squad, and at different ranges.

Then I kept record of each squads ROF (ammo consumption).

The result was a marginally higher ROF for the squad shooting at 90m (all weapons, including two SMGs) compared to the one shooting at 490m (one LMG, and possibly some repeater rifles, only).

It was something like when the squad at 90m had used 17 ammo units the other had used only 16 ammo units...

So much for lower ammo consumption.

Cheers

Olle

[Runyan99]

To expand on the point made by FFE:

In addition to the problem of wasting ammo at long ranges, there is also the problem of wasting ammo shooting at 1 or 2 soldiers.

If a 3-man tank crew comes into view, or even a decimated squad with only 1 man left in it, an infantry squad fires every weapon in the squad at these poor targets. Sometimes if a kill is not achieved, a squad can blast away for a couple of minutes, wasting tons of ammunition. 10 men shooting the LMG, some SMGs and some rifles at 2 of the enemy armed with pistols is a disproportionate waste of ammunition.

Somehow, we need fewer men in the squad firing at these low-priority targets, or they need to be fired at much less often.

[ 05-07-2001: Message edited by: Runyan99 ]

[Gen-x87]

I never really understood why you could not supply your units.

I would think that a company commander unit should have a supply level. If a unit is running low on Ammo move them out of the fight and hit the resupply button. It will give you a time on when the resupply will be completed and then away that units goes resupplied.

Anything over 30 mins usually causes your units to be out of ammo which makes it pretty pointless to keep fighting.

Gen

[Michael Emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gen-x87:

I never really understood why you could not supply your units.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time constraints. Resupply is outside the overall parameters around which CM was designed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Anything over 30 mins usually causes your units to be out of ammo which makes it pretty pointless to keep fighting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's how it is intended to work. Except for campaigns, which do allow for resupply between battles, CM is intended to model short tactical engagements. Resupply and similar matters are mostly considered operational concerns.

Michael

[Gen-x87]

Depends on what you consider resupply.

There were ammo runners at the sqaud level. So I think if the command unit is within a certain distance and the given unit is not under fire it should be able to be resupplied to allow it to at least fight to 45 turns.

Gen