MyNameW Posted October 17, 2001 Share Posted October 17, 2001 Why 150mm HE does not work against Sherman's frontal armor? AFAIK SU-152 could knock out even Ferdinand. And SU-152 did use neither AP nor HEAT ammunition. :confused: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted October 17, 2001 Share Posted October 17, 2001 It should. I once played a QB with three 150mm guns against a mess of Allied armor. Those tanks were immobilized with near misses and brewed up with direct hits. The TDs were knocked out with near misses. At the range at which I opened up with my guns, most of the shots were direct hits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameW Posted October 17, 2001 Author Share Posted October 17, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pvt. Ryan: It should. I once played a QB with three 150mm guns against a mess of Allied armor. Those tanks were immobilized with near misses and brewed up with direct hits. The TDs were knocked out with near misses. At the range at which I opened up with my guns, most of the shots were direct hits. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> What kind of ammunition your guns fired? In my case 150mm gun run out off HEAT shells and fired HE shell at Sherman. Even direct hit did not knock out the tank. Moreover: QMBB indicated no kill while I oredered my gun to target Sherman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stalin's Organ Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 The Russian 152's did use APHE ammo - posibly the largest AP rounds ever made for a AFV?? However there's no particular reason why HE, even 150mm HE, should KO a tank with decent armour (Which the Sherman does have - check how thick 3" is on a ruler some time!!) unless it hits suspension or some weak spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 It's hardly definitive and I'm no expert BUT ... I threw together a quick test with a Sherman Easy 8(no ammo) stuck on an island and faced frontally by a Hummel (only HE) 550m. away. The Hummel killed the Sherman on the first turn, the second turn and the fourth turn in three tries. What makes you think the 150 CAN'T kill a Sherman? Did you have a game in which it didn't happen a couple of times? I had some non-penetrative hits but obviously SOMETHING got through. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingfish Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joe Shaw: It's hardly definitive and I'm no expert BUT ... I threw together a quick test with a Sherman Easy 8(no ammo) stuck on an island and faced frontally by a Hummel (only HE) 550m. away. The Hummel killed the Sherman on the first turn, the second turn and the fourth turn in three tries. What makes you think the 150 CAN'T kill a Sherman? Did you have a game in which it didn't happen a couple of times? I had some non-penetrative hits but obviously SOMETHING got through. Joe<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I just ran my own tests for fun. I copied your parameters, but tested both the Hummel and the 150mm IG. Each weapon was tested three times. The Hummel scored kills on the second, first (one shot) and second turn. The total shots expended for all three tests was 8, with only one miss. Then I tested the 150mm IG. The first test lasted 8 turns. The gun got off a total of 11 shots (1 miss) before the tank crew bailed. The tank was never really knocked out, only immobilized. The second test was even more remarkable. 13 turns, 19 shots (again 1 miss) and the tank's MG finally caused the gun crew to panic off the map. We are talking about a tank who just took 18 direct hits in the turret and hull front with a 150mm HE round, and not only is the crew unfazed, but the bow MG and optics work well enough to kill half the crew of a dug-in gun 500 meters away and drive off the rest. The third test lasted 5 turns and the tank was killed with the 8th shot. Like Joe's said, these tests are hardly definitive. Nevertheless, it does seem odd that two very similar weapon systems end up with such different results. Edit: The Hummel's 150mm gun has a blast rating of 200, while the IG has a BR of 164. [ 10-17-2001: Message edited by: Kingfish ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonC Posted October 18, 2001 Share Posted October 18, 2001 They are not "very similar weapon systems". The longer gun on the Hummel has 70% more muzzle velocity than the infantry gun, and about 3 times the kinetic energy. CM rates its armor piercing capability about 33% higher than that of the infantry gun. The 150mm Hummel round penetrates 90mm of armor at 500m, flat, which is enough to get through the front turret of most Shermans (89mm flat, some reduced for armor quality). The lower hull is also vunerable on some models. Meanwhile either weapon is rated high enough to KO a Sherman with a side hull hit even at a steep angle, up to 60 degrees. The blast of either can presumably cause immobilization or gun damage, and either can certainly cause a bail out. In short, there is a big difference between a 100 lb shell going 400+ meters per second, and a somewhat shorter and thus lighter shell going only 250 meters per second or so. One can crack a Sherman's armor in many places by sheer momentum, and the other can't, unless it gets a glancing blow along the hull side, or something equally hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyNameW Posted October 18, 2001 Author Share Posted October 18, 2001 I think that CMBO does not properly simulate "non-AP" effect of HEs. 150mm HE shell may not be able to penetrate frontal armor of Sherman, but chances that crew will be killed by internal armor flaking are very high. I also carried out my own test: empty Sherman against 150mm IG. I placed Sherman 250m from the gun. Hit: 96%, Kill: none. I ordered Sherman to target area to keep its MGs busy. Also I tryed to keep tank unbuttoned. Not only tank was able to take more than 10direct hits without any damage (even crew was not hit), but also it did not fire at IG from its MGs. :eek: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts