deploying ATG (particluarly 88mm) under fire

[coe]

I've heard that deployment of these big guns

and of others were done successfully under

fire - I've never been able to do that

successfully though. Any idea as to what

ranges probably (given that LOS in CM is

rarely beyond like 3000m) or what to do to

give cover? I've considered popping smoke

on the deployment area.... but for 6 minutes?

C.

[MrSpkr]

I've read of it being done at ranges under 1.5 km (primarily in France or on the Eastern Front).

IMHO guns are too fragile in CMBO - on mortar hit nearby and the bloody things are finished, even if the crew only takes one casualty.

[Andrew H.]

I know that Rommel stopped a British counterattack at Arras by hastily deploying some 88s, and the troops deploying the 88s appear to have come under occasional fire from the attacking tanks.

It's important to keep in mind that the tanks that attacked at Arras were Matildas which are (1) very slow; and (2) did not have a high explosive round.

I suspect that CM accurately models setting up an 88 when confronted by desultory long range non-HE fire.

On the other hand, in the Official History of the Battle of the Bulge, there are several comments by US troops that their towed tank destroyers (i.e., AT guns) were useless.

Obviously, the latter statement cannot be completely true, as AT guns did knock out a lot of German tanks during the Bulge. But it does point out that there appeared to be significant disadvantages to using AT guns.

[FFE]

It was exceedingly rare to unlimber 76+ mm ATGs while in contact. There are two main draw backs with unlimbering within LOS:

1. 
   <LI> The transport vehicle is generally big, slow, and full of ammunition.
   <LI> The size of the gun makes it a priority target.
   

The game could model hits on transports more accurately. You might argue ATGs are too vulnerable, yet I would not. The game does not model ammunition stockpile hits. One small fire anywhere near the stack of rounds would make the bravest of men run. A dug in ATG is presumed to have its rounds more carefully laid out and thusly less exposed to incoming fire. A quickly unlimbered section won’t have the time to remove all 50+ rounds (especially large caliber rounds) from the transport vehicle, position the rounds a safe distance away from the crew, and lock the ATG into firing mode.

The transport/ammo vehicle is the weak link while unlimbering. Shredding the vehicle early in the unlimbering processes makes the ATG useless

[Andrew H.]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FFE:

The transport vehicle is generally big, slow, and full of ammunition.

The game could model hits on transports more accurately. The transport/ammo vehicle is the weak link while unlimbering. Shredding the vehicle early in the unlimbering processes makes the ATG useless<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good point; 88's were generally transported by unarmored prime movers, which could be easily knocked out by MG fire; HE would be that much more effective.

[lcm1947]

I don't know about real life but you sure can't do it in the game. At first, months and months ago I thought it would be really neat to hook up some guns and tow them wherever I needed them. Well, I need them in the thick of things or at least somewhere where I think the enemy will be coming to. But you don't have the time to arrange them. Some damn enemy unit always pops your towing vehcile before you can even set the gun up so guns are only good if you set them up before the game starts. Which is sad. I know darn well that in real life they were able to move and set guns up so am disappointed that you can't in the game. They should arrange it so that you have some sort of magic protection or something ( I don't really mean magic but you get the idea ) to allow you to set the guns up during battle. It would really add to the game.

[MrPeng]

I am in the midst of a QB with MarkIV and I bought two 75mm howitzers and a couple of prime movers with which to drag them around. I lost the first one to a tank round early on - I had not properly set up my infantry and armor screen yet. The second one I just parked on the top of a nice little hill, the reverse slope of which I just cleared of enemy units the minute before. The gun has a lovely view of the far end of the map, where a flanking platoon is getting it's arse kicked. The gun just opened up on the enemy over there giving my platoon some much needed support.

The keys to mid-game deploying of guns are to give them enough distance from small arms fire that the mover or the gun itself is not threatened, and to have most of the enemy's support weapons and tanks and things otherwise engaged. An enemy mortar crew is more likely to express concern over a platoon that is 250 meters away than it is a gun 750 meters away. The platoon may suffer some damage while the mortar is concerned about them, but after a few rounds from the gun the mortar crew will probably have no concerns at all except "where are my legs?"

DISCLAIMER!

I have no idea if what I described is a part of any actual WWII combatants doctrine or practice. I only know that it is possible, though very difficult, to deploy towed guns in mid game. Grogs concerned with reality-based gaming need not concern themselves with this post.

END of DISCLAIMER

So, dont count out the use of guns (ATG or others) on attack, or redeploying them mid game. It takes some serious thought and a bit of luck to get them to help you, but they can be a part of the action and dish out some death.

Peng

[lcm1947]

Thanks MrPeng for that answer. So it is possible? Well, maybe I gave up too early on them. I'll try again as I really would like to be able to use them in a game. If I can get it to work it will open up a whole new way to play. The other thing I might be doing wrong is when setting up my games I always go for medium or high hills and with me always choosing the American's the German's have their long range tanks always use these hills to kill anything I move up to a high elevation. Maybe I'll try using only small hills and see if that helps.

[Pvt. Ryan]

The greatest difficulty I have deploying guns mid-game is that I always want to place the guns in woods or pine trees. The prime movers can't enter this terrain so I have to unhitch the guns at the edge of the woods and have the crews push the guns into place deep enough into the woods that they have LOS to the enemy. If it's a thick patch of woods that can take forever, and if it's a thin patch of woods the gun or prime mover is likely to be spotted. It's obviously easier to deploy a gun in scattered trees or clear terrain, but that makes the gun and mover so much more vulnerable.

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MrSpkr:

IMHO guns are too fragile in CMBO - on mortar hit nearby and the bloody things are finished, even if the crew only takes one casualty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I mentioned in the "High Caliber AAA" thread, there is an account of 88s trying to unlimber about a mile from a Polish infantry position on Septemer 8th, 1939. They were unable to do so, even at that distance, due to small arms fire. So I think they're modelled about right set-up wise.