Longest Surviving Panzer

[coe]

Do you know if there was any frontline style

panzer (probably the Mk IV) that survived

pretty much from the start of the war (say

1940 or so, not so much 1939) to the end

and was used in front line situations pretty

much (not like a somewhat stand back

command vehicles). I'd also be interested

if any of the first production run Tigers or Panthers made it too.

Last curiosity question - any idea if there

have been any real life double tank kills

(like 88mm goes through a stuart and kills

a sherman behind it?)

C.

[Freak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coe:

Last curiosity question - any idea if there

have been any real life double tank kills

(like 88mm goes through a stuart and killsa sherman behind it?)

C.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure about the 88, but I think I read somewhere, (probably achtungpanzer.com) that the 128mm gun mounted on the JagdTiger knocked out 2 tanks with one shot.

I think I remember The History Channel saying something about that with the 88, though I think that it was more theoretical in tone, I dont think he was describing an exact incident.

[boy_Recon]

MkIVa entered production in '38 with a 75mm short gun, but didn't see action till '39. final version was the IVJ where they replaced the generator for the turret traverse with a petrol engine.

PzI and II were produced in '36, saw action in the Spanish civil war and were probably still lurking about in heavily chopped versions (befehlswagen, SP carriages) in 44-45).

the Bren Carrier prototype first hit the streets in the mid-20's, and we still use them as public transport today (except not).

[Michael Dorosh]

I read, long ago, of an account of either a Tiger or Panther round entering the front of one Sherman in a line, passing through the length of the vehicle and entering the second Sherman in line, but I would be hard pressed to find the reference.

[boy_Recon]

sorry, missed the point on this one.

however..... the last time the PZIV saw combat vs the Sherman was in 1966-67 in whatever Arab/Israeli conflict was kicking off then. The Syrians had the Panzers IIRC, so the answer is probably yes. Also the Swiss army was still using Hetzers and 250/1's in the mid-70's, although I have a feeling some of these were produced under licence.

[Enoch]

I think the question was not what model of tank served the longest but what individual tank had the longest front-line service record. For example, a Mark IV (serial #1010101-1) that came of the production line on March 13, 1942 served in batlle until destroyed on April 17th 1945. Of course, having figured out what the question is I have no idea as to the answer.

[Subvet]

I think some of you guys have misunderstood coe's question (or I am). If I'm reading it right he is asking if a single vehicle made it from beginning to end, not a type of vehicle. I don't know the answer to that though.

I do remember a show on the history channel that had an old Sherman tanker claiming that a German round went through a Sherman from front to back and into another one behind it. I don't know if it really happened or it was one of those statements made to drive home the point that the Shermans were very vulnerable to the big guns of the Germans.

[Freak]

Yeah...I think it was one of those points being made on the History Channel in order to drive home the point of the power the german gun's had. I saw the same "episode" you saw I think. I was pretty sure it was theoretical in tone, though I don't doubt that it could be done.

[CombinedArms]

Along similar lines, I wonder how many Shermans that landed in Normandy in June '44 made it all the way to Germany in May '45. That's certainly more probable than a German tank surviving from '40 to '45 in front line use. Even if such a tank survived, it might be declared obsolete and used for training or something. If it was possible to upgun a field model of the Mark IV, that might have happened.

This isn't the same thing as a tank round going through two tanks, but I once experienced a case in CM where a round from a German on-board 150mm gun passed over some infantry that was advancing in front of a building, hit the building, and knocked out two of my mortar teams hiding behind it. No casualties--even to the platoon HQ hiding in the building's 2nd floor-- but both mortars were knocked out in the first or second turn of a 50 move scenario--very annoying! The German gun never fired again on the building, so it's clear they were shooting at the infantry 50m or so in front of it.

In this same scenario, I fired at a building with a Priest from about 10m away and the backblast knocked out the Priest--it was listed as it's own kill--so watch out for those backblasts.

[Snake Eyes]

Arguably the most successful design was the Pz38(t). A Czech AFV, the LT vz 38, it was originally ordered in 1938 as a replacement for the LT vz 35 but not delivered until after the German occupation of Czechoslovakia. Impressed by its features, the Germans ordered its construction expedited. The PzKpfw 38(t) was used in Poland, Norway, France, the Balkans, and Russia. In June 1941 more than one quarter of the total strength of the German Panzer units consisted of Czech tanks.

Even after its usefulness became limited by the increasing power of the newer tank designs, it continued in service as the Marder III and finally the Hetzer. As has been mentioned previously, the Hetzer went on to serve for several decades.

[boy_Recon]

difficult to trace the history of a single tank. your best bet is either to plough through the Bundesarchive and see if there are any complete records, or check out some Wehrmacht/SS unit histories (available on line if you speak German) for a lucky hit on a "...it was a sad day when we had to hand over old PZiv XXX that Hans and I had served in since 1939" style of reference. either way, i think your chances are slim.

[coe]

As for individual tanks making it through

the war, I was thinking if they were due to be retired after only a year or two of combat (and not refitted and upgraded let's say coudl you make a Pzkw IVJ from a Pzkw IVA) then it would accent the production disparity between the combating nations.

as for my other question - maybe a jadgtiger seeing a column of Allied Trucks and half tracks lined up in front might be better off firing an AP round it could theoretically knock out more vehicles in one shot! (assuming of course the kinetic penetration itself causes explosions as it goes through each vehicle!)

[Stacheldraht]

I believe Belton Y. Cooper mentions two Shermans getting taken out with one shot in Death Traps: The Survival of an American Armored Division in World War II (Presidio Press, 1998). This is a very interesting memoir, btw, about the armor war in the West, from Normandy to the fall of Germany, written by a tank maintainance officer. He offers lots of interesting insights about AFV design, in/effectiveness of different tanks (he's no lover of the Sherman, to be sure), logistics, tactics, development of the hedge-chopper (or "Rhino") to plow through bocage, and so forth.

[ 06-20-2001: Message edited by: Stacheldraht ]

[WWB]

Well, even if the frame where to have survived the conflict, it would have little relation with the vehicle as it was produced in the 1930s.

First there was the German practice of pulling in all tanks for complete overhauls at home factories during the early years of the war. On top of this, add the policy of upgrading these tanks to 'current' spec when being overhauled.

In addition, while waiting to go back home for overhaul in Russia, most german tanks were cannabalized to the bone, meaning that little more than bare frames were returned to home factories to be overhauled in the first place.

So, even if a frame were to have survived, it would likely not have any of the original equipment. Born again not of foundary, so to speak.

WWB