How many Sherman Jumbo's and Sherman Jumbo 76's were made?

[Panther131]

Thanks for any replies.

Also, does anyone know of a web site to find such info on allied tanks?

[Forever Babra]

254 M4A3E2 Assault Tanks were initially contracted for. At first, all were armed with the 75. There is considerable debate as to how many were retrofitted to 76mm.

[Panther131]

thanks for your reply babra.

[This message has been edited by Panther131 (edited 01-08-2001).]

[Quenaelin]

http://www.shadowsfolly.com/WWII/USA/MediumTanksM4.htm

[Jeff Duquette]

I think someone recently posted a source indicting Patton ordered the production of a fair number of "field Jumbos". I was under the impression from that previous posting that these were produced above and beyond the 250 odd machines figure quoted above. Presumably ordnance folks in the 3rd Army were field modifiying A2's and A3's (ala the 21th Panzer Division before Normandy using French steel works to modifiy numerous French tanks into assault guns). Maybe if the person that originally posted that snippet comes through this thread they can post whatever info they have on "field Jumbo's".

[This message has been edited by Jeff Duquette (edited 01-08-2001).]

[Jeff Duquette]

Found it. Oberst-Aufklerung John Waters (aka Panzer I) originally posted some additional stats on field Jumbos:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do not forget that over 200 additional Shermans were feild converted by 1st & 3rd Army workshops to Jumbo status in 1944 & 1945. So actual Jumbo numbers were over 400.

Regards, John Waters

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any additional info on these field converted Jumbos John? Was it restricted to field welding of additional armour plate on hulls, or was the turret armor "uped" in thickness as well?

[Guest Mikey D]

The number of "Jumbos" (in the loosest sense of the term) was significantly expanded at the start of 45 when 2nd Armored(3rd?) started canabalizing their own Shermans, cutting entire hullfronts off one vehicle and overlaying them onto another, effectively doubling the Sherman's frontal armor. Pre-cut 1" armor slabs also eventually became available (manufactured in liberated France?) to be overlaid onto older Sherman hull fronts. No telling what the penetration numbers on an individual Sherman hull would be by war's end.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

Any additional info on these field converted Jumbos John? Was it restricted to field welding of additional armour plate on hulls, or was the turret armor "uped" in thickness as well?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jeff IIRC, as it has been awhile since I read the US Army's Ardennes data base author's posts on the AFV forum.

The process brought the hull & turret front to Jumbo specs, but again it has been along time since I read the notes & I had them saved on my HD till the crash or I could tell you more ;(.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[Slapdragon]

Officially only a very few Jumboes got 76mm guns, but if you look at war office photos from 1945 it seems like every other jumbo has one. I suspect that after Bulge armored divisions spent a lot more time retrofitting these things, but before Bulge you would be hard pressed to find one.

Another issue with US tanks is availability. Older M4s when hit or put out of action were usually not repaired as tanks but turned into medium tractors or gutted for special uses. US Armored divisions had roughly 500% the repair capacity of the same German unit and were great at returning tanks to service. E8s and Jumboes got returned to service to fight and possibly get knocked out a second time, while lower quality tanks got retrofitted or turned into something else. Those Jumboes represent far more combat time than their small numbers suggest since a knocked out tanks was back at the front so fast.

Another interesting fact was that US armored and infantry divisions were "sticky" with vehicles. Because they had such a large repair tail for the divisions, many vehicles listed as destroyed would be rehabbed and kept off division property lists doing secondary tasks. This meant US divisions drank up a lot more fuel than needed (confusing planners and leading to Patton's famous stall at Metz) but it also meant that a US Army corps could pack itself up lock stock and chuck wagon and head for the sunset. The 9th Armored, when the war ended, was found to have 50% more tanks and halftracks than it was suppose to have, and twice as many trucks, jeeps, and other vehicles.

Thus a relatively small number of Jumboes can represent a much larger combat potential for the allies than German heavies, since a German heavy was usually over run when it suffered a kill that was less than catastrophic, and even if returned German units did not have the labor to waste on marginal vehicles, instead returning them all the way to the factory if transport could be found for refurbishment, only trying to fix the best condition casualties.

[Harry Yeide]

For what it's worth, the records of the 6th Armored Group indicate that as of 24 January 1945, 1st Army Ordnance was still deciding whether to grant permission to transfer 76mm guns into Jumbos under 1st Army command.

[Ellros]

IIRC, the 76mm gun was also provided to units in the field as an upgrade "kit", so theoretically any 75mm Jumbo could be made into a 76mm. It just required the unit getting a hold of the kit.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Mikey D wrote

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The number of "Jumbos" (in the loosest sense of the term) was significantly expanded at the start of 45 when 2nd Armored(3rd?) started canabalizing their own Shermans, cutting entire hullfronts off one vehicle and overlaying them onto another, effectively doubling the Sherman's frontal armor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think these were thought of as "Jumbos", at least not officially. Charles got a bunch of data on these vehicles a while ago, but it was really tough to figure out how many were made.

But since the armor was in two pieces (original hull + overlayed hull) the effective armor resistance was roughly equal to 75% of the total. In other words, the second layer of armor only added 50% to the overall resistance to AP shot. It also overloaded the tanks fitted to, IIRC. Lots of breakdowns and boggings.

Steve

[Rich90TO]

About 250 Jumbos were factory remanufactured from standard M4A3's. However, a further 108 were remanufactured in the ETO by a Third Army contract Jan-Mar 1945, using vehicles in the repair pipeline. In addition, somewhere I have a document that mentions at least a further 100+ being manufactured for the Third Army in the fall of 44. I would also assume that some number were remanufactured in a similar way by the First and Ninth Army, but I have no conclusive evidence for that.

The Jumbos evidently were originally intended as assault tanks for the seperate tank battalions attached to the infantry divisions. The numbers manufactured and shipped imply that the dozen-odd battalions staged in England for OVERLORD would each have had about 15 (allowing for spares) enough to outfit one platoon per medium tank company. That said, I have no conclusive evidence that they were actually issued to the seperate battalions. Instead, it appears that they were in fact issued to the armored divisions (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and possibly 7th) staged in England. By the evidence I have seen (unit tank strength reports) it appears that approximately 50 were issued to each of these divisions. How they were organized in the divisions is less clear. IIRC, by December 1944, it appears that the 4th AD utilized them as a platoon in each medium tank company, while 6th AD appears to have organized them as a single company in each tank battalion. By that time each division had about 20+ operational. The 108 produced in 1945 were intended to be split evenly between the 4th, 6th, and 8th? AD, giving them 36 each.

I doubt that they were ever requested by or offered to the British, since they were intended as a "one off" production run for a specific purpose that in the British Army was filled by the AVRE's of 79 AD (I know, not really the same vehicle, but intended for the same doctrinal purpose, to breech heavily fortified positions).

My two cents worth on that. Hope it helps.

[Harry Yeide]

Originally posted by Rich90TO:

The numbers manufactured and shipped imply that the dozen-odd battalions staged in England for OVERLORD would each have had about 15 (allowing for spares) enough to outfit one platoon per medium tank company. That said, I have no conclusive evidence that they were actually issued to the seperate battalions. Instead, it appears that they were in fact issued to the armored divisions (2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, and possibly 7th) staged in England.

Independent tank battalions received Jumbos during the fall of 1944, but as with other items of equipment (such as 76mm Shermans) receipt varied considerably by unit. The 743rd reports Jumbos in combat (2 KO'd!) on 22 November. Records of the 735th TB report the first use of Jumbos at Metz on 19 November. The first observed reference to a Jumbo in the records of the 741st TB, however, is not until early 1945.

Cheers

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Rich90TO Said:

About 250 Jumbos were factory remanufactured from standard M4A3's. However, a further 108 were remanufactured in the ETO by a Third Army contract Jan-Mar 1945, using vehicles in the repair pipeline. In addition, somewhere I have a document that mentions at least a further 100+ being manufactured for the Third Army in the fall of 44. I would also assume that some number were remanufactured in a similar way by the First and Ninth Army, but I have no conclusive evidence for that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great stuff Rich. Thanks for digging on this one.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Harry Yeide said:

Independent tank battalions received Jumbos during the fall of 1944, but as with other items of equipment (such as 76mm Shermans) receipt varied considerably by unit. The 743rd reports Jumbos in combat (2 KO'd!) on 22 November. Records of the 735th TB report the first use of Jumbos at Metz on 19 November. The first observed reference to a Jumbo in the records of the 741st TB, however, is not until early 1945.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harry, Also good stuff.

Either of you gentlemen have hard info on when Jumbos were first deployed in France? Approx dates of First Combat Engagments for Jumbos?

[palleon]

In the Military Hardware of WW2 it says the Jumbos were first used in operation Cobra in the Normandy breakout. An excellent source for info on specs on all Sherman models.

------------------

"Conan! What is best in life?"

"To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of the women!"

[Harry Yeide]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Duquette:

Great stuff Rich. Thanks for digging on this one.

Harry Yeide said:

Independent tank battalions received Jumbos during the fall of 1944, but as with other items of equipment (such as 76mm Shermans) receipt varied considerably by unit. The 743rd reports Jumbos in combat (2 KO'd!) on 22 November. Records of the 735th TB report the first use of Jumbos at Metz on 19 November. The first observed reference to a Jumbo in the records of the 741st TB, however, is not until early 1945.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Harry, Also good stuff.

Either of you gentlemen have hard info on when Jumbos were first deployed in France? Approx dates of First Combat Engagments for Jumbos?

The armored divisions almost always got the good stuff first, and more of it. I'm researching the independent tank battalions. We need an AD guru to answer your question.

Cheers

[LimShady]

Someone has probably already mentioned this, but the appendix of Trevor DePuy's Hitler's Last Gamble backs up the figures mentions about field-converted Jumbo tanks. I don't have the book in front of me, but when i do I'll quote it.

LimShady