Bocage Bug?

[Ninotchka]

Probably been discussed a thousand times before (have done a search)but can Axis tanks penetrate bocage. No problem with Stuarts but im having problems pushing Tigers thru. Seems strange.

Thanks for any advice.

[Maastrictian]

Allied tanks were, by July of '44, equiped with attachements that allowed them to punch through bocage. The Germans never made such modifications.

--Chris

[Ninotchka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Allied tanks were, by July of '44, equiped with attachements that allowed them to punch through bocage. The Germans never made such modifications.

--Chris

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really. So a Stuart can bust thru bocage and a Tiger cant? Seems ludicrous.

Ive read lots of accounts of fighting in bocage country and tigers,mk IVs did cross bocage..

One ref from sherman commanders Ken Touts account 'Tank!'

'...no bloody engineer blew that gap' shouts Bookie in my ear. 'Must have been made by a tank''Too wide for a sherman by far,'says Bookie, assessing it with a drivers eye. 'Probably a Tiger then?''Hope the buggers not waiting on the other side....'

[Maastrictian]

By my understanding its not that tanks couldn't break through Bocage w/o special equipment, its that it was a very difficult proposition. So it might be doable given some time, but not in the scale of a 30 minute CM battle. Also the odds of a tank being immobilized are very high. So in short, it probably happened in real life, but it was rather rare.

This is the same reason why tanks can't run through houses. Sure a tank *could* do such a thing, but it would probably throw a tread and it actually happened rather infrequently.

On the other hand, if you have sources to cite I'd love to see them.

--Chris

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninotchka:

Really. So a Stuart can bust thru bocage and a Tiger cant? Seems ludicrous.

Ive read lots of accounts of fighting in bocage country and tigers,mk IVs did cross bocage..

One ref from sherman commanders Ken Touts account 'Tank!'

'...no bloody engineer blew that gap' shouts Bookie in my ear. 'Must have been made by a tank''Too wide for a sherman by far,'says Bookie, assessing it with a drivers eye. 'Probably a Tiger then?''Hope the buggers not waiting on the other side....'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is probably just another example of tigerphobia. Tigers could cross bocage but they would expose their thin underarmor to any armor waiting for them. It was never SOP. The allies developed a form of plow made from I-beams to chop holes in the dirt banks so the Shermans could plow throw rather than go over. They went through the middle rather than go down the dirt lanes because they were almost always watch by infantry with pzfaust and schrecks. I don't know if they ever fit the plows to Stuarts but i bet they tried. Probably wouldn't work as the really old bocage had banks 5 feet high with hundreds of years worth of tree roots growing in it.

[Pzman]

Here is a movie about allied tanks in Bocage..

http://www.normandy.eb.com/normandy/week3/onormay237v4.html

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by panzerwerfer42:

I don't know if they ever fit the plows to Stuarts but i bet they tried. Probably wouldn't work as the really old bocage had banks 5 feet high with hundreds of years worth of tree roots growing in it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, they put 'em on Stuarts too.

-dale

[Ninotchka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Tigers could cross bocage but they would expose their thin underarmor to any armor waiting for them. It was never SOP. The allies developed a form of plow made from I-beams to chop holes in the dirt banks so the Shermans could plow throw rather than go over. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So CM assumes that all allied AFVs (including universal carriers) were fitted with these plows and all German tankers obey SOP? Seems rather a crude/unsatisfactory solution.

[Pvt. Ryan]

I was playing a scenario the other night where a M8 Greyhound made it through bocage. I thought that was odd. I thought only tanks could do it.

[Ninotchka]

Can anyone provide more info on use of plows by allied tanks?

Were they fitted to tanks other than American shermans. If as I suspect they werent widely fitted then wouldnt it better to make bocage either:

A) Impassable to all vehicles (except maybe US Shermans) and leave gaps in bocage up to mapmakers.

or

Passable with high risk of immobilsation (bogging)

Otherwise Axis armour is at a huge (and historically unsupportable) disadvantage in in the fields of Normandy.

What do you think?

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: Ninotchka ]

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninotchka:

Can anyone provide more info on use of plows by allied tanks?

Were they fitted to tanks other than American shermans. If as I suspect they werent widely fitted then wouldnt it better to make bocage either:

A) Impassable to all vehicles (except maybe US Shermans) and leave gaps in bocage up to mapmakers.

or

Passable with high risk of immobilsation (bogging)

Otherwise Axis armour is at a huge (and historically unsupportable) disadvantage in in the fields of Normandy.

What do you think?

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: Ninotchka ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Use of plows was nearly universal by July 1944. FYI, axis armor WAS at a disadvantage in hedgerows.

[Ninotchka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Use of plows was nearly universal by July 1944. FYI, axis armor WAS at a disadvantage in hedgerows <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Use of plows nearly universal by July? Highly improbable I think. Any evidence?

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: Ninotchka ]

[Stalin's Organ]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Panzerman:

Here is a movie about allied tanks in Bocage..

http://www.normandy.eb.com/normandy/week3/onormay237v4.html<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Check this site out again - according to it 500 tanks were so equipped by 25 July.

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninotchka:

Use of plows nearly universal by July? Highly improbable I think. Any evidence?

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: Ninotchka ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The majority of all pictures of late July show tanks that are equipped with Rhinoceros plows. The link from Stalin's Organ shows my point that they COULD cross without, but the belly was very exposed to fire.

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: panzerwerfer42 ]

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninotchka:

Use of plows nearly universal by July? Highly improbable I think. Any evidence?

[ 06-06-2001: Message edited by: Ninotchka ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

from Doubler's "Closing with the Enemy":

"The First Army Ordnance Section assembled all available welders and welding equipment to complete the project and used scrap metal from German beach obstacles to construct most of the hedgerow cutters. In a prodigious effort between 14-25 July, First Army welding teams produced over 500 hedgerow cutters and distributed them to subordinate commands for installation. By late July, 60 percent of First Army's Shermans were mounted with the device."

-dale

[Ninotchka]

Thanks for the responses, most illuminating.

Ive been doing a bit of homework with the scenario maker and discovered that CM does attempt to simulate the use of plows/hedge-cutters over June-July period.

In June all allied vehicles cant pass thru bocage. In july all tracked allied vehicles can pass thru bocage.

Its a reasonable solution but still lacks the subtlety/realism we have all come to expect from this wonderful game. From everyones contributions and my own research it seems that bocage-busting tanks were only used in significant numbers during the Normandy breakout (Op Cobra) in the very last days of July. Even then figures seem to indicate that 40% of US tanks were not equipped. British/Canadian use at this time is unclear but I believe (contradict me please)that it was much less widespread.

The hedgecutter was a significant factor in the success of Op Cobra (Culin the inventor was awarded Legion Of Merit)and I dont think it is beyond a CM ethic/engine that models the small diff between a M4A3(75)W and a M4A3(75)W+ to also model Shermans, Stuarts etc with bocage penetration capabilty and without

. Obviously no visual adjustments would be possible or expected.

As it stands in any July+ scenario all tracked allied vehicles including universal carriers, self-propelled guns, and churchill AVREs can slice thru bocage banks like knives thru pilfered French buerre whilest axis armour in accurately-mapped bocage country (the scenarios included with CM give a pretty poor representation of the claustrophobia of pocket-handkerchief fields and labyrinthine sunken lanes) is effectively forced to sit-tight or move via roads. This makes for seriously gamey bocage engagements.

What do you think?

[Splinty]

IIRC,from the history channel's interview with one of the Ordanance officers who was there only about 30 or so Shermans were fitted with the Rhinoceros in time for use in Operation Cobra. I could be wrong or thinking only of the very beginning of the use of these devices.

[Kestrl]

You will never see Hedgerow cutters fitted to fully-tracked Axis vehicles in CM. Look in the CM manual on page 34.

German Vehicles also cannot enter bocage

Note: Starting in July 1944, all fully-tracked allied vehicles are assumed to have the so called "Rhino" attachments - steel prongs welded to the front lower hull of a tank enable it to smash through the dense bocage hedges of the Normandy. Germans did not use this equipment and therefore are not allowed to cross bocage.

Straight out of the CM manual. I've read that Shermans did use a M1 dozer blade attachment to bust through hedgerows.

[Kestrl]

I don't see how it could be "Gamey" when a allied fully-tracked vehicle moves through bocage its speed is extremely reduced and it has poor LOS and is easy prey for AT infantry, AT gun, or a enemy tank.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninotchka:

Thanks for the responses, most illuminating.

Ive been doing a bit of homework with the scenario maker and discovered that CM does attempt to simulate the use of plows/hedge-cutters over June-July period.

In June all allied vehicles cant pass thru bocage. In july all tracked allied vehicles can pass thru bocage.

Its a reasonable solution but still lacks the subtlety/realism we have all come to expect from this wonderful game. From everyones contributions and my own research it seems that bocage-busting tanks were only used in significant numbers during the Normandy breakout (Op Cobra) in the very last days of July. Even then figures seem to indicate that 40% of US tanks were not equipped. British/Canadian use at this time is unclear but I believe (contradict me please)that it was much less widespread.

The hedgecutter was a significant factor in the success of Op Cobra (Culin the inventor was awarded Legion Of Merit)and I dont think it is beyond a CM ethic/engine that models the small diff between a M4A3(75)W and a M4A3(75)W+ to also model Shermans, Stuarts etc with bocage penetration capabilty and without

. Obviously no visual adjustments would be possible or expected.

As it stands in any July+ scenario all tracked allied vehicles including universal carriers, self-propelled guns, and churchill AVREs can slice thru bocage banks like knives thru pilfered French buerre whilest axis armour in accurately-mapped bocage country (the scenarios included with CM give a pretty poor representation of the claustrophobia of pocket-handkerchief fields and labyrinthine sunken lanes) is effectively forced to sit-tight or move via roads. This makes for seriously gamey bocage engagements.

What do you think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Splinty:

IIRC,from the history channel's interview with one of the Ordanance officers who was there only about 30 or so Shermans were fitted with the Rhinoceros in time for use in Operation Cobra. I could be wrong or thinking only of the very beginning of the use of these devices.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe at the end of June there was 30, but there were definitely 500 or so by Cobra.

[dalem]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninotchka:

The hedgecutter was a significant factor in the success of Op Cobra <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not exactly. Cobra was the plan to blast a hole in the German defensive line and get out of hedgerow country. While still stuck amongst the bocage, then the Cullin devices were useful tactically, but not really afterward.

-dale

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: dalem ]

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ninotchka:

As it stands in any July+ scenario all tracked allied vehicles including universal carriers, self-propelled guns, and churchill AVREs can slice thru bocage banks like knives thru pilfered French buerre whilest axis armour in accurately-mapped bocage country (the scenarios included with CM give a pretty poor representation of the claustrophobia of pocket-handkerchief fields and labyrinthine sunken lanes) is effectively forced to sit-tight or move via roads. This makes for seriously gamey bocage engagements.

What do you think?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that yes, you have a reasonable argument to a degree. By example of my own bocage "test" scenario, I found that I could send a UK universal carrier through bocage in the same way as a "Rhino"-equipped tank.

Allowing the largest latitude of abstraction in that German tanks can't cross a bocage line, I doubt that even a cutter-equipped Universal carrier could get through any better.

From my view, yes, I think that SOME heavier & more powerful German vehicles should be allowed to cross bocage (with a chance for bogging/immobilization). This, of course, would have to allow that certain Allied tanks could make a bocage-crossing attempt even in the June-'44 scenario timeframe.

BUT....the tabulation to determine which specific vehicles could attempt to cross a bocage line (and how a cutter installation would change the chance of crossing) probably just was something that required too much effort to complete in the initial development cycle for CMBO. Such a tabulation would also have to consider both a vehicle's power-weight ratio AND its raw engine torque. No small chore.

Finally, there are two "work-arounds." If you want German panzers to be able to "move around" bocage terrain a little easier, then in scenario design, leave a gap here & there in a bocage line (or replace it with a hedge tile). Fully-enclosed bocage fields should be infrequent anyway; after all, the Normans had to get in & out of them with their carts & livestock too.

So I recognize the level of abstraction here, but further allow WHY it is here for now. In the future CM II game engine (not to be confused with CM2 for the East Front), this might be addressed to more detail.

[Ninotchka]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Note: Starting in July 1944, all fully-tracked allied vehicles are assumed to have the so called "Rhino" attachments <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is exactly my point Kestrl. Historically I think this is an extremely unsafe assumption. While there is evidence for some use of ad hoc hedge-rams made from salvaged beach obstacles before Op Cobra the Culin hedgecutter only really come into play the last week of July (in Op Cobra)

'By the last week of July about three-fifths of all american tanks had been equipped with Culins spikes. So far none had been employed in combat. Bradley had decided to keep them as a surprise until Cobra was underway'

Duncan Anderson 'D-Day'

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I don't see how it could be "Gamey" when a allied fully-tracked vehicle moves through bocage its speed is extremely reduced and it has poor LOS and is easy prey for AT infantry, AT gun, or a enemy tank.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe its gamey when all allied tracked vehicles including universal carriers, archers, churchills, priests etc can nip through bocage while all german armour cannot. There is simply no historical justification for this and it radicaly changes the balance of power in bocage country. CM allows for more sophisticated solutions than this.

Speed extremely reduced? Not really vehicles will hunt thru in no more than 5 seconds. (Havent really got a problem with this, could well have been possible)Poor LOS? Yes but while its 'in' the bocage its also invisible to any enemy on the other side.

Not sure if spotting ability is impaired immediately after exiting bocage but if it isnt I think it certainly should be - the vehicle would likely be covered in mud and undergrowth.

Ninotchka

[Ninotchka]

If calculating bogging/immobilisation is to complex a task then at the very least I think ability to pass thru bocage should be limited to types of allied AFV that were commonly fitted with bocage-busting attachments (some historical research required to ascertain which...but, from limited reading I have been doing on the subject that could be just US tanks and some? tank-destroyers. Anyone have more info?)

Presently I am using your workaround Spook of adding scattered tree sections,hedges or gaps to bocage although this I feel is pretty unsatisfactory. The essential character of bocage country was/is the limited access to the tiny fields. Fields were linked by narrow cart-tracks, bridleways, and paths. There were very few gates or gaps wide enough to fit a tank. AFVs were often forced to brave the bocage..

And again, allies in CM still have huge advantage of being able to 'read' terrain - knowing that enemy armour must use the breaks.

[ 06-07-2001: Message edited by: Ninotchka ]

[dalem]

In the end it doesn't really matter because the way bocage is handled in CM currently is so abstract. When they are able to move to much smaller terrain tiles (CMII?) then we'll be able to model hedgerows more realistically.

-dale