Psycological straint in a war: Officers

[Blenheim]

I don´t remember seing this discussed yet, so maybe we can have some useful discussion here. Correct me if I am wrong...

OK. I remember several threads arround the Psycological effects that war and combat has in soldiers and tankers. I remember as one of the most interesting threads here that one arround the studies that said that very few sodiers in the II WW actually tried to kill anybody, and were reluctant to shot. Well, but I digress...

I'd like to get some knowledge from the grogs and soldiers that are arround here on the issue of the psycological straints of officers during a war. I imagine that they must have a really hard time, really: they have to survive to the same risks that the average grunt faces, but also must take care of a group of scared guys that keep asking him what to do.

Taking decisions is never easy, but taking decisions under deathly arty barrages, trying to lead a group of people, and knowing that some of them (even you!) will get hurt or killed... OK, I don´t like this position, for sure. Damm, I'll be scared as hell. The problem is I can´t afford showing that, because I am suposed to be the moral support of my squad, platoon or whatever. (note: I refer to low rank, even NCO... yeah, I am not entirely accurate. I am no grog, so to hell with it ).

So Question? How tought it is/was? Casualty rates? I remember reading somewhere that in the I WW the number of Oxbridges that got killed in the war (high class people => mostly officers) was outrageously high, and also read that several US officers went to combat without any sign of their rank, to avoid being targeted by snipers. So well, probably they die quite often... but how the fare in combat stress, and things like that? Answers rolling....

[Michael Dorosh]

Some Canadian books to check out -

GUNS OF NORMANDY - Blackburn talks about all Canadian officers stripping their neckties and rank badges off so as not to be singled out as snipers

AND NO BIRDS SANG - the memoirs of an infantry platoon commander (nature writer Farley Mowat) who fought in Sicily and Italy, and eventually lost his nerve and thankfully took a job as Brigade Intelligence Officer after the Moro River battles in Dec 1943.

Terry Copp did some work on neuro-psychiatric casualties. By WW II, the Canadian Army considered "Battle Exhaustion" as a legitimate form of casualty and much has been written on this complex subject.

Also see CODE WORD CANLOAN for a detailed description of the burdens of a Platoon Commander in WW II combat. They were expected to set the example in all areas - hygiene, weapons handling, fearlessness - and of course, as you say, this placed high stresses.

[Andreas]

Junior officer casualties were very high, both in the Great War, and in the second world war. Leading a platoon was probably one of the more dangerous jobs the infantry had to hand out. I have read the casulaty rate for the Canloan officers somewhere, and I think it approached 2/3rds, but I can be totally wrong.

Blackburn also talks very openly about how he used alcohol to combat his loss of nerves towards the end of the campaign, and his relief when he was relieved of FOO duty.

Very good books dealing with the situation in the Great War are 'Memoirs of an infantry officer' by Siegfried Sassoon, and 'Goodbye to all that', by Robert Graves, they both served in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

they both served in the Royal Welsh Fusiliers.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm....doesn't Graves on at great length about the pride they had in being called the Royal Welch Fusiliers???

Graves was required reading for our WW I history class in University, though we were told to skip the first 50 pages. The book is indeed an excellent read, and Graves manages to find much humour. I recall Sassoon's being a little more dry but its been ages since I read it.

I think you may be on the money as far as Canloan goes, Germanboy. A large percentage of them were also decorated, including MCs.

I don't know what casualty rates among officer in WW II were (though you are correct in saying they were high) but a survey done of CEF battalions serving from 1915 - 1918 and a survey of Canadian battalions serving from Normandy to VE Day shows that among infantry battalions (rank and file included together) casualty rates were actually higher in the Second World War than in the first, statistically.

In 4.5 years of fighting in WW I, my own regiment had 1313 fatal casualties. In .75 years of fighting in WW II, the total fatalities were 403.

In WW II, the regiment suffered 22 fatal officer casualties (of a full strength of 36). If you figure that non-fatal wounds outnumbered fatalities on the order of 4 to 1, the regiment went through their officership twice.

And the CO, MacLauchlan, was eventually relieved of command due, it is accepted, to the stresses placed on him.

In the British and Canadian armies, platoon, company and battalion commanders were generally in their 20s or 30s - Monty replaced most of the "old" COs where possible. The youngest CO at Dieppe was Dollard Menard, who I think was a 27 year old Lieutenant Colonel. One lieutenant colonel of the Cameron Highlanders of Canada was 23 years old when he was killed in NW Euorpe.

[ 09-07-2001: Message edited by: Michael Dorosh ]

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Hmmm....doesn't Graves go to great length at the pride they had in being called the Royal Welch Fusiliers???

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bloody Goatsuckers - and trust a bleedin' uniform grog to call me on it... You are right, they were the Royal Welch Fusiliers.

Trust the British to make a proud tradition of a spelling mistake. Incidentally, most of the Regiment hailed from the industrial towns and cities of the midlands, centered on Birmingham.

[dfgardner]

Read "Company Commander"; if memory serves it's the experiences of a plain, run of the mill US Infantry Company Commander in WW2.

You'll really get a taste for what he experienced at the company level (decisions, etc).

[Andreas]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

[QB]Graves was required reading for our WW I history class in University, though we were told to skip the first 50 pages. The book is indeed an excellent read, and Graves manages to find much humour. I recall Sassoon's being a little more dry but its been ages since I read it.In 4.5 years of fighting in WW I, my own regiment had 1313 fatal casualties. In .75 years of fighting in WW II, the total fatalities were 403.

In WW II, the regiment suffered 22 fatal officer casualties (of a full strength of 36). If you figure that non-fatal wounds outnumbered fatalities on the order of 4 to 1, the regiment went through their officership twice.

[QB]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the first 50 pages give you a good insight into the background of many of these officers (public school and all that). I thought the book benefited from it.

Regarding casualties in WW2, 6th DWR was disbanded because of officer casualties (the report by the Lieutenant-Colonel asking for the Battalion to be disbanded makes grim reading), and 11th Armoured was apparently told after Goodwood that it would have a week to sort itself out, or be disbanded, due to losses of junior leaders.

[Enoch]

As dfgardner said you should check out "Company Commander" by Charles McDonald. he went on to become the official US Army historian but the book is about his own experiences in WWII.

One of the themes throughout the book is McDonalds own self-doubt as to whether he is capable of fullfilling his duties and not killing his men.

[The_Capt]

Well I can't say much about history but current staff estimates run at about 15% stress casualties can be expected in any formed unit after sustained operations (greater than 3 months).

We are suffering higher rates from the tours in FRY and Africa in the 90s. Nobody is quite sure why but I have heard that it was the duration (six months being in your face everyday) with only one or two rotations back combined with the overwhelming helplessness of the modern Peacekeeper in these environs.

From WWII we were taught at staff school that a very good CO, G3 or COS would last 6 months and then be burned out. Some didn't make it past a few days.

From a personal point of view, sending someone to do something which will probably get them killed, day in and day out, is one hell of a thing to live with. The worst part is that the troops know instictively that what you are telling them to do is very dangerous and their chances of getting nailed are very high. You can see it in their eyes, but they do it anyway. There is a great feeling of guilt associated with that but at the end of the day you have your job and they have theirs.

Somedays I wished I had theirs.

[Michael Emrys]

One of the things that brought Barbarossa to a grinding halt was the extremely high rate of attrition among the experienced NCOs and junior officers of the German army. War Without Garlands covers this pretty well. Some units lost 80% of their junior officers in a matter of weeks. These were the men who had led to victory in France and the Balkans, and their loss was essentially irreplaceable.

Michael

[Blenheim]

Shameless self BUMP !!!