Careers in Combat Mission

[Michael Dorosh]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Abteilung:

Careers would certainly add a measure of realism to the game if implemented correctly. Engagements with the enemy was the number one winner of medals. Certainly the crew of a stuart which knocks a couple tigers out would recieve some manner of decoration or recognition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would depend on a lot of factors. Successful battles were usually more well rewarded than those that were not (though there are exceptions, of course - Dieppe won Canada two Victoria Crosses, more than any other battle of WW II). Individual commanders also had their own views on what should be rewarded or not. I think a real concern (for grogs, anyway) is that something that seems amazing to a gamer (ie knocking out a Tiger with a Stuart) would not be considered worthy of a medal in real life. Awards were given for bravery rather than technical feats, or lucky shots. If the Tiger-killing Stuart also held off an enemy company attack, it would be much more likely that the commander receive an award than if said Stuart were retreating from an action at the time, leaving an infantry unit without armour support.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Same with a Panther crew which stops the onslaught of an armored company. I'm just throwing out examples which are within the scope of CM and would merely be the designer's discretion wheter to include them or not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ultimately, the only workable system would be to let the player do it - pretty unrealistic, but I don't think you could ever get a computer to arbitrarily handle a system of "rewarding" troops; too many parameters to handle.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Read stories of how certain individuals came to win theri awards. There are already many scenarios which depict these famous moments (i.e. Villers-Bocage). The only thing that is missing is an "instant assessment" of the battle and a distribution of merit after the battle. In my opinion, that would be a tad unrealistic. Medals were awarded sometimes months after the action. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And in the case of the higher awards, after much debate and consideration at higher levels. My own regiment had a man nominated for the Victoria Cross (I must digress, I talked to him Saturday night and got an autograph on my regimental history...to further illustrate my earlier point, he would be the last one to call himself "courageous") which, after making it all the way through 5th Brigade headquarters, 2nd Division, II Canadian Corps and finally 1st Canadian Army HQ, was downgraded at 21st Army Group to a Distinguished Conduct Medal. Monty thought it was a "good DCM." Cest la guerre. The Knight's Cross went through a similar approval system. This would not exist in a computer game.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Only in the most desperate of situations would soldiers recieve decorations or promotions in or during or very shortly after battle. Most of the time, the recipients found them meaningless anyway as their lives were more important at that time (See any reputable reference on the battle for Stalingrad). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point - would be neat if you could provide a quote from one of your references (on Stalingrad or anywhere else).

Please?

[Loki]

I have seen posts on this subject for the 7 months I have been reading this forum. I am glad it keeps coming up. I am in favor of promotions in the game. With CM2 being on a much larger front and over a much larger time period,it would seem a good idea to implement. It would only be feasible in a linked campaign or a quick battle campaign.

I don't see why this can't (or won't) be done by BTS. After a QB a new battle could be generated based on the size of your force. An example would be something like this. Both sides begin the 1st battle with 2000 points, if you lose 1000 points maybe the computer would only have 1500 points. That system would give you atleast a fighting chance while encouraging you to keep your force's alive.

I know its just a fantasy of mine,and I hate to say this ( I really do), but maybe a CM clone such as GI Combat will incorperate a feature like this. :eek:

[Soddball]

The medals aspect is interesting - but perhaps an out-of game solution might be something akin to the 'heroes corner' on combat missions (Let me know if I've got the wrong website )

You can submit several turns of what you consider to be a heroic action by a particular group of soldiers or vehicle, people vote on it (1 for "No he's a girly woofter", 10 for "Blimey, guv, that's brave and a great acheivement") - ie, download it, watch the vids, and respond - and if your average vote is high enough, you get included in the heroes corner.

I think that would mean more to me than an arbitrary decision by a computer about medals, if my fellow players felt that a unit had achieved something beyond the norm.

There are lots of niggles which would need to be ironed out but I think that fundamentally it would work, and would satisfy people's desire for the bravery of their pixellated troops to be recognised.

It doesn't address experience - and I'm not going to.

[Abteilung]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Good point - would be neat if you could provide a quote from one of your references (on Stalingrad or anywhere else).

Please?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the well constructed and thoughtful response. One of the books I refer to is the following:

Stalingrad: The Fateful Siege, 1942-1943. Anthony Beevor.

I don't have it here at work so it'll be awhile if you want a direct quote, sorry about that. But I do remember the besieged army being sent stacks of medals packed in with various other supplies during the ill-fated airlifted relief attempt. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Dorosh:

Ultimately, the only workable system would be to let the player do it - pretty unrealistic, but I don't think you could ever get a computer to arbitrarily handle a system of "rewarding" troops; too many parameters to handle.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I really think you've got a point when it comes to deciding who gets the medals.....this is a monumentous hurdle. To give the player the control of awarding them would involve a lot more than just pinning medals on your troops after the action. One almost invariably arrives at the same conclusion - it is outside the scope of the current game. There would have to be an entirely strategic dimension added to the game which again strays away from the concept of a tactical combat simulation.

As swell as it sounds, It would either have to be some halfway implemented...."gamey" (for lack of a better word) affair or an entire new dimension added to the game (Can you say Years in development?) :eek:

[Quenaelin]

I have heard that this (career)/campaign option would not be available until version CM II. But until that you have to reward your self with a beer when you have won a battle. Or wear your own medals/decorations from army to reward you or buy yourself real or fake decorations/medals from local (army) shop. Or use home made medals from household materials such as old coins and old 70s cloths for ribbons. All you have to do is to attach ribbon to coin with glue and you have your medal.

[Timbo]

I hope I'm not repeating any of the previous posts I hastily scrolled through:

BTS's philosophy is, maybe, that CM is above all a skill game-- and like chess you start even and let the better player shine. Right?

[von Lucke]

As long as "campaigns" in CM are limited to single battle operations you'll never see units gain experience. And as far as individual awards and decorations go, I think the whole concept rather silly (for various reasons already outlined).

Now, if BTS were to instill a Grand Campaign, wherein you take a Battalion, Company, Platoon, Troop, (or whatever) from the start of the entire Theater Op to the finish (June 44 to April 45, for instance), now that I could go for.

Much in the manner of Steel Panthers you'd be alocated a certain amount of points depending on how you did in the previous battle with which to "buy" replacements. The cost of said replacements would be higher or lower depending on troop quality (ala Panzer General).

But don't count on seeing it anytime soon...

[deanco]

I'd like to see medals given out for heroic action 'cause I like to get emotionally involved in the lives (and deaths) of my men. Almost every game I've played the game, I've had a 'hero'. The Stuart that takes out 4 AFV's, the squad that got 20 kills, etc. I'd like that guy to get a medal, at least! And I'd like to see that medal in the detailed Unit Info screen, when I review my troops after the battle. It doesn't have to affect gameplay squat. He's still the same guy he was, he just carries that medal with him to the next battle in the operation.

I've never played an operation in my life, but this feature would get me to play one.

And just to be ABSOLUTELY clear, this addition would be of a graphic nature only. The game looks to see who does good, and awards medals, and put's the bmp's up on the screen. End of program. Yes, it's childish. I proudly admit it.

[Quenaelin]

If you cannot wait untill CM II then answer is simple, just give your men that medal and record it to paper or with notepad or make somekind of database and keep account who will survive and who will not, that is it.

[Abteilung]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quenaelin:

If you cannot wait untill CM II then answer is simple, just give your men that medal and record it to paper or with notepad or make somekind of database and keep account who will survive and who will not, that is it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To what end?

:confused:

[deanco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quenaelin:

If you cannot wait untill CM II then answer is simple, just give your men that medal and record it to paper or with notepad or make somekind of database and keep account who will survive and who will not, that is it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quenaelin, the whole fun is letting the game decide who gets the medals, and looking at the little bmp on the screen. If you don't understand that, you'll never understand why I bothered posting in the first place. But I'm gonna give it a shot.

OK, the comp and I both know that my Stuart took out 2 HTs, a tank, and caused 11 infantry casualties. I been watching the game of course and around turn 25, with victory assured, I start thinking ahead to the medal the guy will receive. Will it be the Purple Star with Added Maple Leafs? Or the Bronze Valorious Valor Award? Or if he's lucky, the Silver Pipsqueak? I might even disagree with what the comp decided. That would make it even more fun. "What?? Only the Steel Service Bars?? What a rip!!"

Also, I REALLY like seeing the little picture of the medal, in color, displayed in the game. This, I doubt if I can explain to you, Quenaelin. You'll just have to take my word for it that I would get a real kick out of seeing that medal in the game.

[cpurkiser]

Well as relative newbie, I'd like to say that I would be delighted to have a campaign.

I've had the game for a while and played it a fair amount, but put it away for a couple of months and just started some PBEM games.

I am fairly knowledgable about WWII tactics and weapon systems, but compared to this crowd strictly a novice.

It seems to me there are three issues.

1. Is there a demand

2. Is it realistic

3. Will BTS implement it.

If you talk to/read forums with turn based strategy gamers, you'll find that a reward/promotion system adds immensely to the satisfaction/immersion of the game.

I think this can be seen on many games from

Alien Crossfire, to Jagged Alliance, Panzer General, Steel Panther, and Xcom and their many sequels and derivatives.

I have friends who basically won't buy a game without a good campaign system. In my case, despite my admiration for this game, and the reasonable decent AI. I find I didn't play it that much because while many of the scenarios where good that got old after a while, the included operations left me cold. (I'm play the hypothetical 21st Pz attack, and it seems to be better).

2. Is it realistic? I claim no particular expertise, other than reading almost all the Ambrose books, and a number of other British, and German accounts of small unit tactics. It seems to that many American units in the initial waves of D-Day would have gained enough experience to be upgraded a grade (e.g. Green to Regular) after a couple of days of fighting.

I think it is perfectly reasonable for people who think the concept of campaign game with a core group is bogus to turn it off and not play with it.

3. Will BTS implement it. Clearly BTS hasn't like the idea of a campaign game. I understand their philosphy about not putting in features just cause some marketing dweeb says it hot.

Now as former marketing dweeb, I can say with a fair amount of confidence that having a campaign game will increase their sales, by a measurable amount.

Right now CMBO, is a terrific wargame. It is so good that I don't even consider buying any traditional wargames from Talonsoft, or Shrapnel games, Hasbro, or Microsoft Close Combat. I think with a minimal amount of work CMBO could appeal to the much large audience. More sales means BTS can do more for grognard and the rest of us alike.

However, I think getting BTS to do this requires the beta testers, and hard core CMBO types to say. As much as I really like to see BTS more accurately model machine Gun interdiction fire, it is more important, more fun for them to include a campaign game

[Mattias]

After fighting a few months on the “East Front” (Talonsoft style) I had been awarded so many medals I was genuinely afraid of being mistaken for a Soviet General and shot on sight. Might have been addressed in later versions but back in the beginning it was just silly.

Actually I have yet to see any game that presents decoration in anything but the most inane and superficial of ways. Utterly uninteresting.

As for medals being an incentive to emotionally connect you with your pixel men, how a bout some willing suspension of disbelief? Read about their real life miseries, work on your emphatic abilities, play the game for real and bam! You won’t need any non consequential topping to feel the real taste of that cake.

Campaign games might well be interesting, as long as they are as realistic as humanly possible. It would look rather silly if BTS strapped on some half cooked solution onto the game engine, which does not seem to have been developed with campaigns in mind. CMII perhaps, it would require a major overhaul after all, and then, in my opinion, only in the shape of a campaign with historical levels of in combat activity for the unit concerned.

M.

[ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]

[Quenaelin]

Personally I like to give medals for my self as in Tank Platoon II, in CM you can see results for yourself and can calculate who will earn their medals, game don't have to calculate that and I would definetly like to give medals/promotions/decorations for myself if that option will be possible in future releases of CM.

[Panzer Leader]

Do you think, in some kind of oblique way, Deanco was giving us a hint or clue about those "interface" improvements he's working on?

Come on, Deanco, spill it!

[Michael Dorosh]

The point has been made here several times now, quite ably, in this thread that there are many instances of other games getting it wrong.

In Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe, I remember memorizing the "point" levels necessary for each additional decoration.

The Close Combat "campaigns" were very silly - I just couldn't get involved with any of the "characters" since if I decided not to use them in one battle, they appeared to be gone forever.

I agree completely that if BTS is going to do it, they should do it right.

[WWB]

I don't think medals or experience gains would be realistic to model except in one case. That case would be green troops in operations. Since green troops are supposed to represent fully trained but as yet unblooded troops, it would make sense that they could progress from green to regular over the course of several battles. But aside from that I don't think there should be any other advancement, as it would be completely unrealisitc. Most definitely, one should not be able to make 'elite' troops, which was the usual case with my Steel Panthers campaigns.

WWB

[tss]

patboivin wrote:

Given the life expentancy of people on the front lines during WW-II (my own gaming record as a commander bears this out), you can expect your "career" to last an average of two weeks or so, I believe.

Grognards would have better figures I'm sure.

A couple of weeks ago I went through a binder of archival data of my grandfather's infantry company (1./JR37, he was the assistant leader of the first platoon). There were several officer lists of the batallion (and its individual companies).

In particular, the first list for the company was made on late-June 1941 (my notes are at home right now so I can't remember the actual dates). The second list was on September 1941 (or maybe it was October). There wasn't a single name common in the lists. In fact, most of the officers were killed or wounded in the first battle, Särkisyrjä.

The third batallion of JR 37 also fought in the same area. One of its companies (7th, I think) lost all its officers on one day at Särkisyrjä.

Lars Holmström (who was an artillery FO) writes in his memoirs that in spring 1943

that they fought along one company of JR 12 that had lost all its officers 5 times in the almost two years of the war.

- Tommi

[Juardis]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wwb_99:

I don't think medals or experience gains would be realistic to model except in one case. That case would be green troops in operations. Since green troops are supposed to represent fully trained but as yet unblooded troops, it would make sense that they could progress from green to regular over the course of several battles. But aside from that I don't think there should be any other advancement, as it would be completely unrealisitc. Most definitely, one should not be able to make 'elite' troops, which was the usual case with my Steel Panthers campaigns.

WWB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I would say that conscripts could become green and regulars could become vets. I hear what you're saying, but it seems a squad could go from green to regular in 3 battles, then regular to vet in 5 more battles. Numbers are arbitrary of course, but the point is it takes longer for a squad to develop the working relationship it takes to progress from green to elite. Clearly the elite squads are those that have trained hard together for a long period of time (airborne troops or SS troops come to mind). If you don't have that initial training, then you have on the job training and the chances of a squad making it through enough battles intact to get to elite is mind numblingly low.

We must all keep in mind here that we're talking squads and crews, not individuals. Losing a squad member or crew member reduces the overall experience of that squad. And if you follow the US doctrine of "replacements", then you seriously reduce the experience of that squad.

As for medals, again, remember, we're talking squads here, not individuals. Units get citations, not medals (AFAIK). Experience level increases seem to be the only viable addition and never an increase to crack or elite (unless we have a grand campaign).

[deanco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mattias:

As for medals being an incentive to emotionally connect you with your pixel men, how a bout some willing suspension of disbelief?

[ 04-25-2001: Message edited by: Mattias ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point exactly. The game is there to help us do that. That's it's job. That's why we're playing a game in the first place, to achieve this willing suspension of disbelief. If you're saying it's MY job to do that, then why bother playing a game in the first place? Why not just print out a line of text?

Hetzer at (35806,29716) takes frontal hit at 6° armor facing.......calculating results...... Hetzer destroyed.

Now come on and tell me that the line I wrote above is as effective in achieving a willing suspension of disbelief as seeing a Hetzer buy it in CM.

[themaltese]

Okay, now I'm seeing some very interesting arguments both for and against what I was inquiring about. Obviously, there is a demand for perhaps creating some grand-campaign function within CM. What I propose is a system of promotion, and medals be awarded to your character and units surviving certain lengths of time or reaching a certain number of objectives. If you look at CMBO, it is in itself a "grand-campaign". However, there is nothing that should stop the development of "grand-campaigns" within the scope of the Western Front. If such campaigns were to be developed, I would be thinking something like "Patton's Drive North", "Race Across France", "The Big Red One", or "Battle of the Bulge" (each one containing a series of scenarios forming a campaign, and containing several of these campaigns to form the grand-campaign). The promotion system that I would propose would start you off in the first scenario of the first campaign as a figure with rank of your choice. In designing such, you could go in two directions here. Let's say that you decide to start off as a squad leader or something. One perspective could be that the scenario would be very small and would feature just your squad (this would really suck, though). The other perspective could be that the scenario size remains constant no matter what rank you pick, but your command is limited to the rank that you've selected, and the AI takes care of the rest of the guys. This would be a cool option in that you would act as an independant force within the range of your army. Say that the overall objective of the scenario is to take 3 towns and a small marker. Your orders, as a squad or platoon leader, could be to take the small marker while the major force (controlled by the AI) takes the others. As you progress through the scenarios (and your character remains alive), you could be promoted to a higher rank and thus gain control of a greater force. Also, your character's presence in the vicinity of certain troops should affect their morale or fighting spirit towards the positive side (effectively, CMBO does this already in a way with squads receiving additional benefit by being within command range of an HQ) so it could be done. Hence, if you're a leader like Rommel (who led from the front), your troops will probably fight better than if you sat in the back watching your men die. Overall, as you and your units progress, you and your units (say the HQs of each unit) could receive awards for remaining alive and having reached particular objectives in a certain amount of time. This could all be done, but I'm not a programmer, and hence do not know what would be involved in creating this addition. I think it's a nice idea, but I don't think BTS would commit to it (like several of you have mentioned already).

[Scipio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by themaltese:

Hi there! I am totally awestruck at CMBO! I was once a great fan of Panzer Commander, West Front, and East Front II. Now, CMBO combines Panzer Commander and West Front to a degree that's got me 100% addicted. When CM2 comes out, East Front II will be a thing of the past too! I do have one issue with CM, though, that I miss from the other games -- careers and promotions. It was a satisfying experience in both PC and WF to be "rewarded" with a medal or promotion after smashing my opponents! Is there a demand for incorporating careers and promotions into this already beyond excellent game? I, for one, would really like to see this addition.

themaltese<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you want to make a military career by playing CM, join my ladder. 26 (or so) ranks to climb, 16 armys & 9 branches to choose from, quality rating, ladder image (also custom, if you want).

[Mattias]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deanco:

Hetzer at (35806,29716) takes frontal hit at 6° armor facing.......calculating results...... Hetzer destroyed.

Now come on and tell me that the line I wrote above is as effective in achieving a willing suspension of disbelief as seeing a Hetzer buy it in CM.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Subjective of course but that simple line of text would be enough for me, as long as it is the real thing. Now that CM is here I have an even better option available, but still nothing kills my enjoyment like unnecessary, ahistorical, unrealistic, glitz.

So far I have never seen a good implementation of decorations, hence they kill the disbelief, for me.

M.

[SadBloke]

HEAD EXPLODES

wtf.. you guys heard of summarising your bloody thoughts??? omg... heard of the enter key?? my head just exploded seeing all that text..... you couldnt of broken it up with a little porn.. oh no....

oh.. and btw... you preach "do a search" well if you damn tank nuts and mod sluts or hamsters or whatever your calling yurselves today didn't post umpteen topic after topic about the muzzle velocity of a 77mm jagedypanzerwanny every day.. it might be a little easier

anyway the non inclusion of a campaign mode is lazyiness.. hop to it....

[SadBloke]

btw if your wondering im insane... and my mental age is 2..

to my suprise on replying i noticed my reply wasn't visible... after much hours of thought and deliberation i noticed the topic was comprised of 2 pages. may it be without question then that i have spoken out of turn and replied to some messages herin said before therin earlier.

my attempts to sound intelligent have been succesful? may i infiltrate your group?