Sniper post continued

[lcm1947]

I was really wanting to continue talking about the sniper post but am finding it hard to have to go throught all the other off-post comments about - well what ever they're talking about so thought I'd try this so as not to interfere with the blooding that's going on over there. Not that I mind it- it's funny but let's get back to SNIPERS. Now who said something about using a 50cal MG to snipe with? Come on speak up?

[offtaskagain]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947:

I was really wanting to continue talking about the sniper post but am finding it hard to have to go throught all the other off-post comments about - well what ever they're talking about so thought I'd try this so as not to interfere with the blooding that's going on over there. Not that I mind it- it's funny but let's get back to SNIPERS. Now who said something about using a 50cal MG to snipe with? Come on speak up? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny how somebody always manages to start bringing in the Uberfinns no matter what the topic. Anyways, I believe it was me who mentioned that. If ya don't wanna dig through the other thread, I mentioned Gunnery Sergeant Carlos Hathcock of the USMC using a M2HB with a 10x scope making a kill a 2.5 kilometers. This was in Vietnam at Duc Ho I belive. For relevance to WWII, he got in a duel with a Vietnamese sniper over several days in Elephant Valley, somewhat like Erwin Konig and Vasily Zaitzev.

[Jarmo]

And it was also mentioned that .50 cals with a scope were used for sniping already in Korea.

Hmm.. did we already decide we are satisfied having sharpshooters and don't need snipers?

[Juha Ahoniemi]

If snipers are indeed included in CM2 we will see much more buttoned AFVs. In some game against my friend Ari his sharpshooter (I don't remember was it crack or elite) took out my TC from about 350-400 meters. We watched that situation afterwards and it was clear case. Having snipers could lead to some very gamey selections IMHO. With all that camouflage they will butcher relentlessly and walk away with it!

At least sniper unit cost must be very well balanced!

Juha

[Mannheim Tanker]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Juha Ahoniemi:

If snipers are indeed included in CM2 we will see much more buttoned AFVs. In some game against my friend Ari his sharpshooter (I don't remember was it crack or elite) took out my TC from about 350-400 meters. We watched that situation afterwards and it was clear case. Having snipers could lead to some very gamey selections IMHO. With all that camouflage they will butcher relentlessly and walk away with it!

At least sniper unit cost must be very well balanced!

Juha<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, if snipers are modeled well in CM2 (if they are even included for that matter), there shouldn't be too many opportunities to abuse them. Realistically, they will only get 2 or 3 shots off at the most in a 30-45 minute scenario. In real life, not many snipers would plink off 10-20 rounds in the course of a 30 minute battle, as that would really be placing themselves at risk of being detected.

[Barticus]

If you want to read a good book about a US Marine Sniper in Vietnam, I recommend the book '93 confirmed kills'. It details the 1 1/2 tours of duty of Sgt. Hathcock who had, go figure, 93 confirmed kills for that war, or whatever you want to call it. He has an account of sniping with an M2HB and killing a Viet Cong 'tax collector' at a range of something like 1700 yards, while the target was moving. He was also responsible for killing a North Vietnamese General from a distance of 800 yards. IIRC he said that when he had approached as close as he could in the treeline, the distance was about 1200 yards, but we wanted to get to 800 yards 'just to make sure'. Sheesh, I can't hit squat with a 16 power scope at 300 yards! Remember the sniper duel scene in Saving Private Ryan? Well, guess what, that happened to him too. Halfway through his second tour, he was put out of action when a Marine amtrac hit a mine. He wasn't in it, but started evacuating wounded marines when the thing went up in flame and Hathcock suffered 3rd and 2nd degree burns to most of his body. Even though he was in constant pain, after the war he still made efforts to get to as many shooting competitions as possible.

One dedicated man. If you want more info, either get the book, or just ask Gyrene

Bart

[lcm1947]

Well, I kind of fancy myself as an expert shot or should say did but I can't even imagine hitting other than the ground at anything over 1000 yards. I used to practice at this range with my .270 Weatherby Mag. with a 3X9 Redfield scope and finally stopped since I could not even get a deceit grouping at that range after getting around a 2 inch grouping at 300 yards. The wind had much to do with it even when light. And I also had the advanage of the finest bench rests and table available and still wasn't able to do much good. So, I am just in awe of anyone being able to shoot at those ranges. - But I really would love to see it for myself before believeing it - not saying it didn't happen - I don't know and not trying to flame you for saying it. Just so much a bullet/rifle combination can do. :eek:

[lcm1947]

Hmm.. did we already decide we are satisfied having sharpshooters and don't need snipers?

--------------------

Actually I would love to see snipers in CM2 but only if they were limited to the number of shots they could make in a given game and second I they were expensive and third each side was limited to 1 or maybe in big games 2 per game. I would hate to see the game with a dozen of them. Plus I don't think it would be very accurate for a battle to have more than 1 or maybe 2 at most.

[offtaskagain]

Perhaps if they are included snipers could be dedicated commander hunters. I know sharpshooters can do it, but maybe have snipers set to only target commanders with the few shots they'd be willing to take.

[Juha Ahoniemi]

I was told (by my friend who was trained to be a sniper in the army) that snipers have following -UNOFFICIAL- priorities:

1.Commanders (any officer will do)

2.Guys using a radio

3.Medics (Yeah forget any international agreements!)

So beware if You are one of those...

[lcm1947]

Medic's? Man, that isn't right. I mean isn't right in that you shouldn't shoot them. The whole idea isn't to kill but to wound so the wounded will overload the system. If you kill the medic's then many guys would die thereby not accomplishing your goal. I say we shoot the snipers! Oh, yeah just thought of something. Medic's aren't even armed. Not very fair is it? OK, now I don't like snipers anymore!

[Juha Ahoniemi]

As I said, that(sniper priority) isn't what they are trained for but UNOFFICIALLY they were told those priorities. In a very sinister way that makes sense - in a total war there is no room for humanity.The Geneve agreements was/are broken very often. If You are an "underdog" You use every mean necessary. In some point I see this reasonable if You are defending Your land. But if You are the aggressor who is invading or those dirty tricks are used in domestic conflicts You should get very hard judgement - Now I have to say I am VERY pleased that mr. Slobodan Milosevic now have to face his doings in a trial.

We are playing wargames but we never must forget that in real life war is hell. And in total war there are no rules.

[Skipper]

> Now who said something about using a 50cal

> MG to snipe with? Come on speak up?

Soviet AT rifles were sometimes used for this purpose, too.

> Realistically, they will only get 2 or 3

> shots off at the most in a 30-45 minute

> scenario

Depends. Zaitsev's detachment (iirc, it was called 64th army shiper school) once deflected a company-sized German attack. They did it by killing all officers and NCOs in a matter of three minutes or something like that. It was an experiment.

> So, I am just in awe of anyone being able

> to shoot at those ranges.

Yup, me too.

[Jarmo]

Here's the problem.

In CM all prices are based on battlefield effectiveness.

If we have a "typical" sniper who only shoots a couple of times at HQ's during an engagement, it'll be dirt cheap.

Or would it be something that can wipe out a whole HQ team just like that?

[Tero]

>If we have a "typical" sniper who only

>shoots a couple of times at HQ's during an

>engagement, it'll be dirt cheap.

>Or would it be something that can wipe out >a whole HQ team just like that?

Or dirty expensive. If it was eneabled to distinquish HQ units from the rest of the spotted but unrecoqniced infantry units better than the rest of the units in the game. And take them out with one shot.

And then it would turn into a gamey cheat because of the absolute spotting makes sure every unit is isntantly made aware of the location of enemy HQ units.

[Sergei]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lcm1947:

Medic's aren't even armed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I think in Finland they're armed = legal targets. And I have read that in Israel they used ambulances to bring ammo replenishments to front.

[daft]

I read in Anthony Beevors 'Stalingrad' that Zaitsev experimented with mounting his scope on a anti-tank piece in order to fire shells through the slits of german bunkers. Aparently the charges in the shells weren't good enough for any precision shooting.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tero:

Or dirty expensive. If it was eneabled to distinquish HQ units from the rest of the spotted but unrecoqniced infantry units better than the rest of the units in the game.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sharpshooters can do this already. They usually shoot at HQ's, arty spotters and such. Even when the target still reads only "infantry?".

[lcm1947]

Tero made the comment that snipers would be cheap if incorporated in CM2. Boy, I hope not. True they don't do the damage that a squad could inflict but if they were super accurate like the word sniper suggests then it would be rough on tanks. Which after thinking about it wouldn't be a bad idea. I have problems dealing with those damn powerful German tanks and a couple of snipers might help at least keeping them buttoned up. I don't think we'll get them in the upcoming game but it would be cool if we did. And as far as Finland arming medic's - dumb move in my opinion. Somebody's always got to F#@k up a good thing.

[SGT_Gold]

I for one would like to see two different units, sharpshooter and sniper. They are trained to different standards and are used for different missions. As someone who could group 20 rounds through a standard M-16 12" at 300m I was NOT a sniper, but I might have been a sharpshooter. Given the 8 round ammo load for the sniper, they aren't going to do too much damage unless you fight from the front. Keeping company commanders and arty spotters at a safe distance is a good test of your tactical ability. If a few snipers are playing havoc with your battle plan, it's time to rethink your mission.

[lcm1947]

Very good point Sgt Gold. I agree, but I don't want to lose the benefits that come with having a HQ unit with the rifle squads so they more than likely will be at risk I'm afraid but that's ok I would still like to see some snipers in CM2. Would sure keep you on your toes. I'll hire or I should say order my own snipers to hunt the bastards down. Imagine, wanting to shoot an officer? Just isn't fair or right.

[LC-]

I agree with the argument that in war there is no rules. In the pacific theater during WWII the marine medics would always get rid of their big red medics crosses. Its just asking for trouble when you walk around with bright colors looking important during a jungle war where camoflague is a major tactical advantage. All I know is if I were in that position, I would take my red cross off too. and I certainly wouldnt want a medic who still wore the red cross near me if we were setting an ambush or something. War isnt about playing fair. Hopefully there will be less and less war.

[Tero]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jarmo:

Sharpshooters can do this already. They usually shoot at HQ's, arty spotters and such. Even when the target still reads only "infantry?".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to look into that more thoroughly. The ones I have gotten do not seem to be particularly picky about the targets they choose to fire at IF they fire under TacAI guidance. I assign them tagets manually so I do not normally leave them unattended to choose their own targets.

And I usually opt for a AT team instead of a sharpshooter anyway if purchasing manually. For obvious reasons.

[Guest Babra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sergei:

And I have read that in Israel they used ambulances to bring ammo replenishments to front.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please.

[Tero]

>Tero made the comment that snipers would be

>cheap if incorporated in CM2. Boy, I hope

>not.

I made no such statement. At least I think I did not.

>True they don't do the damage that a squad

>could inflict but if they were super

>accurate like the word sniper suggests then

>it would be rough on tanks.

That is the main reason I do not normally pick them for my line ups. Why try and going for a TC with a sharpshooter who normally (or rather statisically) isn't that hot on inflicing damage over extended ranges when you can take out the entire vehicle with an AT team inside the sharpshooters effective range ?

>Which after thinking about it wouldn't be a

>bad idea.

Agreed. That is why I think they should be given the killer hits even if the ammo goes from 10 to 2-3 rounds. Snipers were mainly hunters of enemy special units and men, TC's, FO's and HQ units. That should reflect on the game more prominently.

>I have problems dealing with those damn

>powerful German tanks and a couple of

>snipers might help at least keeping them

>buttoned up.

As IRL also in CM it is the adjoining infantry that is the spotting force you need to take care of. If they spot your sniper the tank can take it out even when buttoned up.

>I don't think we'll get them in the

>upcoming game but it would be cool if we

>did. And as far as Finland arming medic's -

>dumb move in my opinion. Somebody's always

>got to F#@k up a good thing.

Was it us or the Red Army which did not honour the Red Cross sign at all ?

Besides, wouln't you single out the guy not carrying any arms but a bag marked with the red cross in combat ?