Jagdcarcajou Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by TheDesertFox: As Dschugaschwili already said. A game is a game, may it be historically accurate or not doesn´t matter. Helge Hey, But that is exactly what I am talking about. A game is not just a game if it is a sim. A simulation is used for many purposes: to have fun, to test "what-if" theories, to re-enact historic events, and to learn. That is a far cry from, say, Candyland. I know literally nothing of the organisation which forms these regulations, but I assume its comprised of rationale people who can distinguish between swastika-glorification and historic portrayal. Dismissing all games simply because they are games is a peeve of mine. The term "game" should not automatically be applied as a derogatory label. And what does money have to do with it? (Not sarcastic, I am actually curious.) Must one pay to have a product reviewed, or is it done automatically? That may be discouragement enough if the process if expensive, thus not worth the risk. But if its free to submit for consideration, why not at least give it a go, with a healthy dose of explanation? Hope this hasn't gone too far afield. I find this topic particularly intersting. Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I think if you replace "game" with "entertainment product" it becomes clear why any challenge to this law will fail. However painstakingly created, CM is still entertainment and not a real simulator like say, SIMNET which trains tank crews to fight together. Falcon x.0 is still an entertainment product even if they call it a sim because it tries to model flight physics etc as realistically as it can. The intent of this law, as I understand it, is to prevent any kind of positive association i.e. pleasure, enjoyment, satisfaction with the symbology of the Nazi era. CM is entertainment so its intent is to provide a pleasurable playing experience for the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Jagdcarcajou: But that is exactly what I am talking about. A game is not just a game if it is a sim. A simulation is used for many purposes: to have fun, to test "what-if" theories, to re-enact historic events, and to learn. 1. Have fun. That's what computer games are for. 2. Test what-if theories. Should you be able to create ahistorical what-if scenarios in a realistic simulation? Perhaps. In a game? Sure. 3. Re-enact historic events. Can be done in a simulation and in a game. 4. Learn. Can you learn something from playing CM? That is, aside from pure military things? Different people will disagree. The thing is: the BPjS won't look that closely at a game to determine if it can be called a simulation or not. If it's going to be sold in Germany, they check it. Why does the average Hans buy a computer game? Because it's a game and he wants to have fun. By the way, I'm not saying that trying to sell CM to Germany will not work as long as there are terms like "Waffen-SS" in it. I don't know enough about this to comment on this topic. But I'm sure that labeling it a simulation won't make any difference. You can't trick the famous german bureaucracy that easily. Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDesertFox Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Cris, Dismissing all games simply because they are games is a peeve of mine. The term "game" should not automatically be applied as a derogatory label. Try to tell this the authorities. Seriously, Entertainment and showing forbidden symbols in one application is a no go as RMC already said. What has money to do with it ? Well you have to pay some lawyers if you want to go to court with your product and enforce a lawsuit with the intention to have it accepted. And if (BIG IF) there will be a trial it will take a lot of time. Time you don´t have if you want to stay in business. Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: TheDesertFox@gmx.net WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triggerhappy Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Hi BTS, Desert Fox is absolutely right. There is no problem mentioning the "Waffen SS" in a game, as long as it's not done in a "glorifying" way. There were a lot of games that featured Waffen SS units. However it is prohibited by law to show any Nazi symbols like the swastika or SS runes in a game. These symbols may only be displayed in historical photos, though you could get into trouble if you used such photos in a game manual. If you have any further questions feel free to contact me by e-mail at ruediger.steidle@pcgames.de. Although I'm not a lawyer I've been working as a games journalist in Germany for some years and might be able to help you with examples from other games. ------------------ Rührt euch! CMPFCICM2 - Combat Mission Players for Campaigns in Combat Mission 2 - Join us! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 If using historically accurate terms like "Waffen SS" would cause difficulties, would it perhaps be possible to use English translations of those terms in the German edition? Many Germans, in my experience, have at least a basic knowledge of English anyway, and many know it quite well. It's hardly an ideal or elegant solution, but what can you do? ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gremlin Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Regarding the issue of whether CM is "merely" a game (not that there's anything wrong with that, imo) or also an historical simulation and so forth: While you can certainly play out hypothetical scenarios in CM and consequently learn from them, it seems extremely clear that CM is not primarily designed, marketed, or used as educational software. It also seems incredibly unlikely that it could or would be used in serious historical research. That's not at all intended as a slight, but just a recognition of the fact that CM is an entertainment product that's built around historical facts, not a research tool designed to delve up facts and interpret them. ------------------ New to Combat Mission? Visit CM Boot Camp at Combat Missions for tips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Warphead- Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 There is another nasty addition to the banning of a product by the Bundesprüfstelle. All derivates of the product will be banned too. That means if CM2 is indexed CM3, CM4, CMX will all be on the index too. They won't even look at it. Of course you can force them to lift the ban if placed without reason but that takes a dozen lawyers, a lot of money and years of time... :-( There are movies, books and comix still indexed from the '60s. They were banned because of pornographic or violent content. The owners of the rights on those leave them banned though every children's television show is more pornographic today and the ban would be lifted for sure. It is just too expensive. BTS, try to avoid a ban by the BPS! ------------------ http://www.nahverteidigungswaffe.de "Haben die Krupp-Werke Betriebsausflug? Da rollt ja halb Deutschland auf mich zu..." (Vincent)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Okay, I had a look on the current CM1: I can't find a problem. There are no Hakenkreuz, and their are no Sig-Runes. The Waffen-SS is simply shown as Waffen-SS, not in political or glorified context, only as one of different possible armys. Nothing that I haven't seen in other games which are in the store without problems since years, like the CS-games, the Steel Panther series, the Art of War and a lot of other strategy games. Also, their is no kind of violent graphics, no blood and guts and heads flying around. Things like that would result in problems with the BPS, but violence is only shown in an abstracted way. The German cross, how it's currently shown to mark German units, is allowed (and still in use by the Bundeswehr), also the term 'Waffen-SS' isn't a problem. ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hakko Ichiu Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 An issue that may need to be addressed is the potential for mods to add forbidden contents. There are mods available that, for whatever reason, replace, e.g., the Iron Cross of the German VL flag with the swastika. I don't recall if the face bmps for the Waffen-SS units show the runes on the uniform flashes or not, but I would be willing to bet that someone has made a mod that does show precisely that. Obviously, any rational person would not hold BTS responsible for the conduct of mod makers. That being said, however, laws are not always interpreted in ways most would consider rational. It would behoove BTS to find out if there is any precedent in the German courts. Just my non-lawyer 2 Groschen. ------------------ Ethan ----------- "We forbid any course that says we restrict free speech." -- Dr. Kathleen Dixon, Director of Women's Studies, Bowling Green State University Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Small question: What if during the course of someone using the software to play/simluate a battle, the SS wins? (I've heard that they did that every once in a while..) So occasionally, in the game, the SS is portrayed as a victorious force. Is this the same as glorifying? I would say not, but this is a legal question as well.. I realize that this is a reflection of historical reality, and at the moment, the game ending screen is pretty bare bones with a fairly straightforward accounting of losses and a legend: Allied Major Victory, Axis Tactical Victory --whatever. I would guess that this is still OK, and as long as CM didn't put up an SS flag or runes or something, the fact that SS units were portrayed as winners would not be a problem. Does this sound silly? Yeah, I guess, but one of the reason I didn't download the swastica flag mod is cause I didn't want to see a victorious swastika when I played the game. I play both sides and I lose a lot, ok?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Jagdcarcajou: I sort-of understand the banning of the symbol when its bandied about frivolously, like in Wolfenstein 3D, or something like Mortyr. When used in the depiction of historic events (in a simulation like CM) it seems rather ridiculous to ban the use of even symbols. To me, that is rather like the U.S. banning the Confederate flag in Civil War sims. Not a lot I could add to what Helge, Andreas, Scipio etc. already said; RMC already gave the basic answer what is the telos, the goal and intent of §§ 86, 86a StGB, see his post above. Since you americans are more familiar with case law, the sole leading case in this regard is the decision BGHSt 28, 394. I have the full text here. It is from 1979 and concerned the use of swastikas on scale model kits of aircraft. Through research I found that the company and product in question must have been Matchbox with the 1:72 kits PK-171 and PK-83. Matchbox's reasoning was, quote "the swastika was used as a symbol of identification for the Luftwaffe, which was not a national socialist organization, and was not used to show national socialist intent." They went on to argue that for an authentic model of a historic aircraft it is necessary to include the swastika, and that there was no ideological intent whatsoever connected with that. The supreme court rejected this arguing. They conceded that the Luftwaffe as well as the rest of the Wehrmacht were NOT national socialist organizations (use of their symbols therefore is o.k.). However, that does not matter. The swastika was used by the Luftwaffe _additionally_ to the Balkenkreuz. Even in this context the swastika remains the prime symbol of the national socialist party. The problem, they say, is that with the mass-producing and mass-selling of this commercial toy this would lead to a widespread, unreflected acceptance of this symbol among youths. IOW, it would become "normal" to them, or even become a symbol for which they harbor friendly associations because they associate it with their joy and entertainment when they encountered it in connection with their toys. This prohibit extends beyond the swastika, to all symbols of entities considered national socialist. The point of Matchbox, that the swastika was needed to make the aircraft model as authentic as posible, and that without the swastika the plane would be not a realistic, authentic reproduction, was not accepted by the court, because "the making of as authentic as possible toys is not a purpose which justifies the usage of the swastika." I will try to translate into english the wording of the essential paragraphs of the german penal code: ----- §86a. (1) A penalty of up to three years of prison or fine is given to a person who 1. in the local jurisdiction of this code distributes symbols of one of the parties or entities named in §86 I Nos. 1, 2 and 4 or uses these in public, in a gathering or in a work of writing (§11 (3)) which he distributes or 2. produces, holds stock of or imports into the local jurisdiction of this law corporal things which show or contain such symbols for use in the way and manner described in Nr.1. (2) Symbols in the sense of (1) include but are not limited to flags, insignia, pieces of uniforms, paroles and forms of address. (3) § 86 (3) and (4) apply mutatis mutandis. ------ the § 11 (3) StGB mentioned in sec. § 86a (1) StGB defines works of writing: ------- § 11 (...) (3) Audio and video recordings, databases, images and other representations are equivalent to writings in those provisions that refer to this subsection. -------- of particular note of the regulations mentioned in 86a (3) is § 86 (3): ------ §86 (...) (3) section (1) does not apply, if the means of propaganda or the action served a purpose of citizen education, of the defense against anticonstitutional undertakings, of art or of science, of research or of lecturing, of reporting on contemporary (political) processes/actions or on history, or serves similar purposes. ----- ------------------ "Im off to NZ police collage" (GAZ_NZ) [This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdcarcajou Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by M Hofbauer: (3) section (1) does not apply, if the means of propaganda or the action served a purpose of citizen education, of the defense against anticonstitutional undertakings, of art or of science, of research or of lecturing, of reporting on contemporary (political) processes/actions or on history, or serves similar purposes. ----- Thank you for your response. That helps quite a bit, but still leaves me a bit frustrated. When I think of a free western nation, censorship of any kind seems out of place. As I read the last paragraph above, I realized that any American could get past the law by using the "art" clause above. Since I have no knowledge of Germany's laws, or how liberally they are interpretted I am left wondering how this can stand against something like CM, or CFS, or any other game that portrays history "accurately". Certainly no swastikas need be used in the game, but putting Leibstandarte runes on SS halftrack models seems like it would fall under the category of art within a historic context. I will leave this to the lawyers at this point, and I would like to thank all those that took the time to respond. Clearly I am no expert, and I appreciate your patience in answering my posts. Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Jagdcarcajou, your "art" argument would apply in germany as well. The problem is, this basic human right of free pursuit of arts is not an absolute right, it is limited by other laws and rights (example: I could claim that shooting people in the head with my .45, and then taking pictures of the blood splater on the street constitutes my personal kind of "art"). Therefore, a weighing/consideration has to take place between the justified interests of the "artist" and the public interests which speak against it. When I think of a free western nation, censorship of any kind seems out of place. I think I know what you feel. Maybe it helps if you remind yourself that germany is _not_ just any western nation. I made this reference once to someone who was arguing he loves to have swastikas on his warbirds - simulation and had a similar take on the german "censorship": think of jewish people, or people who lost relatives during occupation etc., and now, 50 yrs. later, you see german youths happily playing an online game as members of fabulous "Team Swastika", what do you think these people would feel? One could see the prohibition of NS symbology as a _remote_ insult-protection law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 My understanding of the German law is that it is vaguely similar to the copyright law here in that, specific portrayals of Nazi materials may be made for educational, historical, or theatrical. (Like the clauses under copyright that allow for review, preview or commentary exemptions). I believe Steel Panthers went through some of this and at one point SSI was afraid to include SS nomenclature in their TOE's. Not sure how that all came out in the end for their European distribution. I suppose one could compartmentalize or segment such features as are apt to run afoul of the technicalities of that law and allow for the download of them from the US. I think in your place, I'd try and follow-up on how SSI handled Steel Panthers distribution in Europe. Also, what about HPS? Are their games sold in Europe directly? Just suggestions, rambling really. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saru3000 Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 This may be a stupid question ,but would the BPS have any problem with Madmatt being a BTS employee and running a CM specific site that contains mods with the inappropraite symbols (swastikas & runes)? Would they view this as BTS trying to circumvent German laws? Can Matt run the site and not have the site fall under the BTS umbrella? We all know the reality of the situation and that the site is hosted by TGN but how would the BPS view it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maximus Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by TheDesertFox: To show Swastikas and Waffen SS Insignia is only allowed in a historical, educational context. This means in history books, Photo collections, etc. which deal with the context. And how is CM not an historical and educational document? Geez, this whole censorship thing is a bunch of **** anyway. I guess the BPS have never heard the phrase, "For those who forget the past, are doomed to repeat it." IMHO, I think today's German population SHOULD be aware of its history, go or bad, so as not to forget what its forefathers did or didn't. It's like banning anything done or made by US settlers when they drove off and killed American Indians. No we aren't proud of the fact, but it happened. Or the banning or destruction of our southern Antebellum Homes that contained slaves back in the 19th Century. It's part of our history, and it was bad, yet we do not "hide" it from our people. Censorship in ANY form ANYWHERE is wrong, no matter how you slice it! If I was a German citizen, I would be ashamed of myself for allowing this censorship to exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruno Weiss Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 That may be all well and true, but the law is the law, and lawyers tend to make money off of it one way or the other, which helps to explain why there are so many laws that do not make sense. And then too, what makes sense to you and I, might be entirely illogical to a third party. As far as site downloads of materials, I believe the site is only obligated to adhere to the law at its point of origin. I.e., if kiddyporn is legal in Shakeyerbooty, in the Gulf of Siam, then it is upon the person downloading the material in Atlanta to adhere to the law, and they, the downloader is the person who'll they will go after. Can't bother the site in Sakeyerbooty, it is in another country and subscribing to "their" law, but in Atlanta, the FBI might be on one's doorstep for having downloaded something illegal. Now, what the fine print of the German law on this is, is something probably being contested, argued over, and wrangled about over there on a daily basis. But I don't believe they are out chasing down Hakenkreuz downloaders, or setting up roadblocks on the autobahn with swastika sniffing dogs. Again, I believe what is needed is to take a look at other wargame distributions in Europe and how the specifics were handled. Which, is probably best done with the assistance of some real German players, not them fake Uber players, to see how things were marketed "over there". Johnny get yer gun, on the run, for the hun, cause the Yanks are coming, the yanks are coming, the drum drum drumming all the way, Over There, Over There, and we won't be back till it's over over there... Sorry, got a little carried away. ------------------ "Gentlemen, you may be sure that of the three courses open to the enemy, he will always choose the fourth." -Field Marshal Count Helmuth von Moltke, (1848-1916) [This message has been edited by Bruno Weiss (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 There should be line drawn between the German law on the use of Nazi symbology and what the BPS does. The BPS is supposed to identify and "index" those games and publications that are dangerous to children. The Nazi symbology issue is another thing entirely. If I walked around the Zooplatz in Berlin with my Nazi banner, the BPS would not send in commandos to "index" me. I would get arrested and charged under this law cited above. The BPS wouldn't bother indexing a NS game as other agencies are there to handle clear breaches of the law. The BPS is not in the business of identifying illegal games and publications. Quake 3 is not illegal in Germany in any way, but it is on the index and cannot be advertised, openly displayed for sale or sold to minors. Discerning adults can request and purchase the game. CM wouldn't be in jeopardy for being indexed IMO because there are plenty of other wargames already on the shelves here that also portray warfare. The big distinction is the 1st person viewpoint and the relation of the player to the on-screen violence. In Quake 3 I "frag" my opponents, in CM I watch my abstracted troops fight other abstracted troops. The hurdle for CM is the use of NS symbols which in the released version are absent so that CM is clean. As a side note, I have the distinct impression that the BPS is on its ass in catching these "bad" games. This is not really their fault as a game must be referred to them for review by another agency such as a social worker, but Quake 3 was immediately indexed while Unreal Tournament never was. Most recently the Half-Life Gunman game is available in an "uncensored original US version" and a localized German version that features German voice overs and robotic humanoid baddies vice the men of the original. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Warphead- Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Maximus, there is no censorship of the Third Reich in Germany. Quite the contrary. There are a lot of educational TV-shows, the kids learn about it in school and the newspapers cover it constantly. As a lot of the posters above already stated only a few symbols are censored. And they are allowed to be shown in an educational context. And this is done quite a lot. Absolutely nothing is "hidden" from the public about the German past in the Bundesrepublik. Just my two cent (Euro) ------------------ http://www.nahverteidigungswaffe.de "Haben die Krupp-Werke Betriebsausflug? Da rollt ja halb Deutschland auf mich zu..." (Vincent)] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triggerhappy Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Obviously, any rational person would not hold BTS responsible for the conduct of mod makers. That being said, however, laws are not always interpreted in ways most would consider rational. It would behoove BTS to find out if there is any precedent in the German courts. - Hakko Ichiu According to German laws BTS can not be held responsible for mods as long as they don't encourage people to include those forbidden symbols - which they don't do. This may be a stupid question ,but would the BPS have any problem with Madmatt being a BTS employee and running a CM specific site that contains mods with the inappropraite symbols (swastikas & runes)? Would they view this as BTS trying to circumvent German laws? Can Matt run the site and not have the site fall under the BTS umbrella? - saru3000 That's an interesting question. Since the German laws state that the author of the art/game/etc. in question is the one responisble for its content Matt *could* get into trouble if he made mods that include swastikas or other Nazi symbols. In reality this *could* doesn't mean a thing, plus there is AFAIK no way in which BTS could be held responsible for Matt's works. ------------------ Rührt euch! CMPFCICM2 - Combat Mission Players for Campaigns in Combat Mission 2 - Join us! ;D [This message has been edited by Triggerhappy (edited 02-13-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: If I was a German citizen, I would be ashamed of myself for allowing this censorship to exist. Thank you very much for dragging another thread into a mudfight. What does the word 'democracy' mean to you? Since the end of the war German people have voted for their governments. If they felt they need be ashamed of something in this regard, maybe they would just no longer vote for the government that passes the law. It is democracy in action, nothing to be ashamed of. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Maximus: Censorship in ANY form ANYWHERE is wrong, no matter how you slice it! If I was a German citizen, I would be ashamed of myself for allowing this censorship to exist. If I were you, I'd reread some of the previous posts. The issue here is that you can't display the swastika in Germany unless you do so in an _educational_ context. Which means no glorification of Hitler and the SS and no games with swastikas or other Nazi symbols in. But you can still have (correct me if I get this wrong) museum exhibits and books and other educational, explanatory materials with those symbols in them. Documentaries and so on... So the German state is by no means burying the past. Education about the 3rd Reich and the Holocaust is full and complete in Germany. Its a lot better there than it is here in our public schools. The German state takes the opinion that the symbols should not be used outside the context of education about the past. Considering the horrors perpetrated by the Nazis, this is certainly an acceptable approach. And there may be some German folks who disagree with their government on this issue. But you clearly don't know a thing about it. So I suggest that you inform yourself before you tell an entire country full of people that they should be ashamed of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Concerning mods. This can't be problem as there are many other nations too How german law can prohibit finnish player download of mod that is completely legal in finland. So existance of those mods is not a problem. If some german downloads those mods its not BTS business. The swastika was used by the Luftwaffe _additionally_ to the Balkenkreuz. Even in this context the swastika remains the prime symbol of the national socialist party. The problem, they say, is that with the mass-producing and mass-selling of this commercial toy this would lead to a widespread, unreflected acceptance of this symbol among youths. Wouldnt it be time for people to accept history and not push it under the carpet? Seems like people never learn from history and end up doing same stupid things again and again. I don't mean to offend anyone... it's just my wiev. Some people want to hide swastika like it never existed, some people want to burn US flags...list goes on and on. It's sad many governments support that kind of things. If you look this objectively youll find it utterly irrational. For example, why soviet flag isnt in list of banned symbols? Fact is Stalin murdered much more people than Nazis. ..far over 10 million. Reason is Soviets won the war so they are Good, Gerries lost equals BAD. just my opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Um back to topic, European Union law would have precedence over the law of the German states. Maybe an E.U. marketed version of CM2? Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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