Guest Big Time Software Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Hello all! We are trying to cover our butts in regards to the German laws prohibiting content that is in any way "Nazi". There is, of course, a LOT of gray area in the law since by strict definition it covers a whole lot of symbols, terms, organizations, titles, etc. What we are trying to do is make sure we are in compliance without seriously compromising historical reality. One way to do this is by precedent. Gray areas can be clarified by the presence, or LACK of presence, of similar items in the past, therefore giving your case more legitimacy because others have done it without problems. Specifically, we wish to have CONCRETE examples of the following in Germany: 1. Boxed, retail software that uses the term "Waffen SS" somewhere either in the game or its documentation. 2. Any use of "Nazi" type symbols (including Hakenkreuz) in German museums, history books, or whatever else that is apparently sanctioned as being acceptable for general public viewing. 3. Any legal cases involving a historically minded product (book, exhibit, game, etc) being challenged by the German legal system. We know darned well we can't go putting Swastikas in the game and not get into trouble, so that isn't what we are looking to do. Instead, we are trying to feel out the less obvious, and more questionable aspects of the censorship law. Obviously we rather not have to do something like invent a name for the Waffen SS unless we absolutely have to. Please post any information you can come up with here in this thread. Thanks, Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boogaloo Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 I'm not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that as long as the context is documentation rather than propaganda, you can use any type of Nazi symbols, references, etc. As far as accepted usage in books is concerned, I'm just looking at two random examples from my bookshelf, and they both have pictures of Nazi insignia. One is the German edition of "The Times Atlas the Second World War" (Atlas Zweiter Weltkrieg, Bechtermünz Verlag). There are at least 3 pix with swastikas on them (pp. 31, 37, 49), and of course they refer to inits using their historic names. The other book I'm looking at is Chr. Zentner (Hg.): Der zweite Weltkrieg, Moewig Verlag 1998 , and it also provides, lots of pictures of swastikas, historical units, Nazi rallyes, etc. These are two middl-of-the-road publishers, and I strongly doubt they've had any legal troubles WRT these publications. I can't really comment on other wargames because I get the original version whenever I can, and I haven't found any decent German war games so far.. Hope this helps for starters. I'm going to look around for the specific legal regulations. But IMHO you don't have to be overly concerned, because CM clearly is not Nazi propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boogaloo Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 I'm not a lawyer, but it is my understanding that as long as the context is documentation rather than propaganda, you can use any type of Nazi symbols, references, etc. As far as accepted usage in books is concerned, I'm just looking at two random examples from my bookshelf, and they both have pictures of Nazi insignia. One is the German edition of "The Times Atlas the Second World War" (Atlas Zweiter Weltkrieg, Bechtermünz Verlag). There are at least 3 pix with swastikas on them (pp. 31, 37, 49), and of course they refer to inits using their historic names. The other book I'm looking at is Chr. Zentner (Hg.): Der zweite Weltkrieg, Moewig Verlag 1998 , and it also provides, lots of pictures of swastikas, historical units, Nazi rallyes, etc. These are two middl-of-the-road publishers, and I strongly doubt they've had any legal troubles WRT these publications. I can't really comment on other wargames because I get the original version whenever I can, and I haven't found any decent German war games so far.. Hope this helps for starters. I'm going to look around for the specific legal regulations. But IMHO you don't have to be overly concerned, because CM clearly is not Nazi propaganda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boogaloo Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Oops, didn't mean to send this twice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Steve , this is a VERY complicated issue here in Germany: it´s legal to show nazi symbols , names etc., as long as there is a kind of " historical research " or " scientific " background. But... no chance for " computer games " to fall in that category ( we had enough examples in the past that did´t make it ) The Government has an institution here called " BPS " ( Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften ) that checks computergames with " dangerous contents " ( they do not check everything on the market , but will be active if someone - youth organisations etc. - order them to do so ). If a computer game , video , book etc. is " banned " by the " BPS " you are not allowed to advertise for this media anymore and only adults are allowed to buy it ( Duke 3D , Castle Wolfenstein )......in some cases the whole stuff is declared " illegal " and you will get serious problems ,even by just owning the banned media ( Splatter videos fore example ). Since the BPS is located in my hometown , I could make a call and ask them whatever you want to know about " grey areas ". Regards Thomas Klimisch BTW: since there is a FRENCH version of CM , I would also like to see a GERMAN version of the game. Me and several other German CM enthusiasts would like to translate or re-programm the necessary things for you ( but I guess we would need a kind of decompiled CM version for that.. ) Originally posted by Big Time Software: Hello all! We are trying to cover our butts in regards to the German laws prohibiting content that is in any way "Nazi". There is, of course, a LOT of gray area in the law since by strict definition it covers a whole lot of symbols, terms, organizations, titles, etc. What we are trying to do is make sure we are in compliance without seriously compromising historical reality. One way to do this is by precedent. Gray areas can be clarified by the presence, or LACK of presence, of similar items in the past, therefore giving your case more legitimacy because others have done it without problems. Specifically, we wish to have CONCRETE examples of the following in Germany: 1. Boxed, retail software that uses the term "Waffen SS" somewhere either in the game or its documentation. 2. Any use of "Nazi" type symbols (including Hakenkreuz) in German museums, history books, or whatever else that is apparently sanctioned as being acceptable for general public viewing. 3. Any legal cases involving a historically minded product (book, exhibit, game, etc) being challenged by the German legal system. We know darned well we can't go putting Swastikas in the game and not get into trouble, so that isn't what we are looking to do. Instead, we are trying to feel out the less obvious, and more questionable aspects of the censorship law. Obviously we rather not have to do something like invent a name for the Waffen SS unless we absolutely have to. Please post any information you can come up with here in this thread. Thanks, Steve ------------------ Visit Toms Combat Mission HQ ( bilingual site ) at http://home.germany.net/101-77027/CM/TCMHQ.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Posted February 12, 2001 Share Posted February 12, 2001 Sorry , tripple post ------------------ Visit Toms Combat Mission HQ ( bilingual site ) at http://home.germany.net/101-77027/CM/TCMHQ.html [This message has been edited by Tom (edited 02-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Tom Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Sorry , tripple post ------------------ Visit Toms Combat Mission HQ ( bilingual site ) at http://home.germany.net/101-77027/CM/TCMHQ.html [This message has been edited by Tom (edited 02-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Wildman Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 BTS, I'm not sure how well you software develpers talk to each other, but if you can call ESim and Al Delaney. I know that SB is big there and he has had specific German advisors, ala SSnake, etc. Might be worth a call. --- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike8g Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Hi Steve, as a scale modeller, I'm experiencing nearly the same difficulties here. While using those symbols in museum, documentation and "historic" films is allowed, any other form of usage and public display is prohibited. All scale models in Germany, for example, are delivered without any "delicate" symbols. (Even Finnish insignia during WW2 or planes from the WW1 period - a German(Jewish) fighter-pilot flying the swastika as his personal identification sign) Never ever try to show scale models on exhibitions without covering the swastikas on German or Finnish planes. As mentioned above, showing of those signs in films is allowed - also screenshots of those movies in newspapers and television guides. Regarding your questions: (I don't have the time to search all my old stuff, but here're some quick answers) 1. 1944-Across the rhine- S/S units mentioned throughout the documentation 2. - used in all kinds of historic museums (too many to mention here) - many historic books and documentations (sometimes blackened out on the front page, but not inside) - scale model books and magazines ( If author/title/scans are needed - I can send them to you) - simulation software (European Air War / Their Finest Hour - documentation) 3. As mentioned above, scale models exhibitions as just one example. With regards, Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaMilli Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 I have to agree with Tom´s statements above. I doubt that there would be any chance to pass computer game software containg the term "Waffen SS" anywhere. The same applies to swastikas or any other sign of former NSDAP organizations (like Hitler Youth). It is still very interesting that the usage of the Iron Cross (Eisernes Kreuz) is not prohibited in any way, especially not in Computer games. As Tom already mentioned we have to differentiate between media (e.g. games, books, videos, music, etc.) put on the so called "Index" by the BPS on the one hand and completely "banned" media on the other hand. Indexed (?) games are not considered illegal and may still be purchased if you are older than 18 years. Of course, there are other serious restrictions to marketing: those "indexed" games may not be advertised or displayed in show-cases anymore. Banned games on the other side are officially declared illegal by german courts (bitte korrigieren falls falsch) and possession or distribution is prohibited by law. As far as I can remember only very few games were actually "banned" by german courts, and those which experienced this fate really did deserve it (titles like "KZ Manager" where you had to manage a german concentration camp in WWII). A few years ago PanzerGeneral experienced some trouble and as far as I can remember it had something to do with inaccurate (=Nazi) text passages in the manual. But today, PanzerGeneral and it´s successors are legally availabe on the german market and RTS-game "Sudden Strike", which is set in a WWII background is very popular over here. On the other hand, games like Quake, Soldiers of Fortune and other bloody FPS have been put on the "Index" by the BPS and therefore are only availabe to adults. But this surely has not hampered their popularity and distribution among german computer players in any way Replacing all swastikas (like in PanzerGeneral) would be okay for german market, but the usage of ther term "Waffen SS", well, I dunno. Would surely be difficult Just my 2 Pfennig, ------------------ "I am no fool!" Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 BTW: since there is a FRENCH version of CM , I would also like to see a GERMAN version of the game Tom, I am the one who translated the game in French, and I would be very pleased to help anyone willing to translate CM in German. There are a few things to know that can considerably speed up the translation. Regards, Magnus ------------------ Venez visiter le seul site consacré à Combat Mission en français : Appui-feu http://appui-feu.panzershark.com [This message has been edited by Magnus (edited 02-12-2001).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
illo Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 How that kind of censorship is still possible in Germany?? That was main thing btw i never bought german aircraft models..censored insignias. I havent really ever quite got it how some symbol can be banned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdcarcajou Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Hey, Not a German gamer, but I have thought about this issue in the past. What about approaching the problem differently: refering to your product as a simulation and not a game. Does this have any effect with regard to German law? It seems that the term game is often "loaded language" to the non-gaming public, who often consider games childish or frivolous things. The logical conclusion drawn from that loaded language, in this case, is that Nazi propaganda would be given to children as a plaything. If the more serious uses (film, museums, documentaries) are acceptable, then a realistic simulation may be as well, as opposed to a game. I don't know if CDV even tried with Sudden Strike, but they do use the cross. Sudden Strike, however, is by no means a simulation, and they most assuredly could not have circumvented the law. Something which strives for historic accuaracy as much as Combat Mission may be in another category altogether. Just some thoughts. I now return you to the people who know what they are talking about! Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by DaMilli: It is still very interesting that the usage of the Iron Cross (Eisernes Kreuz) is not prohibited in any way, especially not in Computer games. The Iron Cross goes back to the wars of liberation, 1813, IIRC. The medal in WW2 had a small Swastika in the centre (at least the one of my grandfather had), and it was only reintroduced as a decoration in the late 1930s (believe it was not in use between the wars). The Bundeswehr today uses a derivative of the Iron Cross as a marker on its planes and tanks. So it really has a very different history in Germany. My gut-feeling regarding the question here is that the mention of the Waffen-SS (!) may be okay (check), but I would stay away from the depiction of actual SS runes, and any swastikas. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Jagdcarcajou: Hey, Not a German gamer, but I have thought about this issue in the past. What about approaching the problem differently: refering to your product as a simulation and not a game. Does this have any effect with regard to German law? Nice idea - and I am 150% certain it would not wash. ------------------ Andreas Der Kessel Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abteilung Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Should all else fail...it *could* be done in such a fashion to where all other unit designations are displayed except for the exact verbiage as layed down by the response from inquiries to BPS. I.E.: it could come down to all other German unit types being labelled as Heer, Luftwaffe, Volkssturm, etc.; with the SS units left undesignated. Dunno. Bringing this to German gamers will be a headache at best, but they will eternally grateful. Prost! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDesertFox Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Steve, The use of the term Waffen-SS is no problem in games. See Westfront by Talonsoft. The only thing you have to avoid is showing the Swastika or SS Runes. You guys can turn it as you want. CM is and stays a game and thus is subject to monitoring of the "Bundespruefstelle für jugendefaehrdende Schriften". To show Swastikas and Waffen SS Insignia is only allowed in a historical, educational context. This means in history books, Photo collections, etc. which deal with the context. cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: TheDesertFox@gmx.net WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scipio Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Yeah, Helge is right. BUT : it's a question how you want to sell the product. If you sell like now, direct order in the USA, our Goverment can't handle it. If you want sell it in retail-biz, you better avoid all kind of runes and Hakenkreuzsymbols. In Germany is censorship a good old tradition that survived Third Reich. Counterquestion : do we need such symbols in the game? ------------------ Keine Gefangenen! Visit my Combat Mission Sound Mods site! Scipiobase Join the Blitzkrieg Wargaming Club Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uedel Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Yep Swastika etc is banned in Germany. The Term of Waffen-SS is free when u dont use it in a "Glorifing Way". There are some Games using Waffen-SS as Term without Problems (Western-Front, Eastern-Front, D-Day [Megaold C64/C128 Game]). BTW if anyone Translates CM to German I would be glad to Help. I can understand if BTS maybe don't wont to give his Native-Product in our hands, but simple send us the Texts and we Translate it for you With greets Uedel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDesertFox Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Just in case you want to dig deeper into these issues. Here are some websites which deal with the topic. They are all in german so you will need someone who is familiar with translating german law terms into U.S. law terms without loosing the sophisticated meaning. Here we go: Some relevant paragraphs of the Strafgesetzbuch: [ http://public.rz.fh-wolfenbuettel.de/~danielzi/gesetze.htm#TOP ] Verbreiten von Propagandamitteln verfassungswidriger Organisationen (§ 86) Verwendung von Kennzeichen verfassungswidriger Organisationen (§ 86a) Volksverhetzung (§ 130) Aufstachelung zum Rassenhaß / Gewaltdarstellung (§ 131) The "Bundespruefstelle" you can find here : [ http://www.bpjs.bmfsfj.de/top/sonstige/Gesetze/ix4756_27132.htm ] Here are some sites which enlarge upon the laws : http://www.learn-line.nrw.de/angebote/computerspiele/bpjs1.htm http://www.jugendmedienschutz.de/sec3/item3a.htm#4 As already said above, as long as you avoid showing Swastikas or SS Symbols, I don´t see problems. cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: TheDesertFox@gmx.net WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Scipio: BUT : it's a question how you want to sell the product. If you sell like now, direct order in the USA, our Goverment can't handle it. If you want sell it in retail-biz, you better avoid all kind of runes and Hakenkreuzsymbols. In Germany is censorship a good old tradition that survived Third Reich. I don't think that's right. The import of symbols of forbidden organisations (this should include the Hakenkreuz, SS-Rune and such) to Germany is illegal. I'm sure this also applies to the import of such pictures on a computer game CD. I don't think anybody would notice this, but I guess I'd still get cold feet if I had to export this kind of stuff to Germany from somewhere else. Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdcarcajou Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Hey again, I sort-of understand the banning of the symbol when its bandied about frivolously, like in Wolfenstein 3D, or something like Mortyr. When used in the depiction of historic events (in a simulation like CM) it seems rather ridiculous to ban the use of even symbols. To me, that is rather like the U.S. banning the Confederate flag in Civil War sims. "Lest we forget" I believe the idiom says. If one releases a historic work, be it a simulation or a history book or film, it is ahistorical to then remove symbols (or units) which should have been present. How would BTS or any other company portray the 12th SS in Normandy without using the 12th SS? Ignoring them is revisionist, and quite frankly, smacks of the very thing they represented. I am bringing this up because I am wondering if anyone has challenged the law with a simulation product as opposed to the gun-glorifying shooters or RTSs. If the law is respectful of the museum's depiction of history, why not extend that to an acurate sim? Just wondering out loud... Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dschugaschwili Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Jagdcarcajou: I am bringing this up because I am wondering if anyone has challenged the law with a simulation product as opposed to the gun-glorifying shooters or RTSs. If the law is respectful of the museum's depiction of history, why not extend that to an acurate sim? Because the "Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften" won't care about whether CM is a realistic simulation. CM is a computer game, period. You won't get anywhere with your arguments. Dschugaschwili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagdcarcajou Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 Originally posted by Dschugaschwili: Because the "Bundesprüfstelle für jugendgefährdende Schriften" won't care about whether CM is a realistic simulation. CM is a computer game, period. You won't get anywhere with your arguments. Dschugaschwili But has anyone tried? Who knows... If it hasn't been done yet, that doesn't mean it won't get done ever, right? Chris ------------------ What the hell is a Jagdcarcajou? CM Recon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDesertFox Posted February 13, 2001 Share Posted February 13, 2001 But has anyone tried? Who knows... If it hasn't been done yet, that doesn't mean it won't get done ever, right? Hehheehe, You can try of course if you have too much money and don´t know how to spend it except throwing it out of the window. As Dschugaschwili already said. A game is a game, may it be historically accurate or not doesn´t matter. Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: TheDesertFox@gmx.net WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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