Snipers spotted too easily?

[Sgt. Beavis]

I've noticed this a bunch of times. I have a sniper in the top floor of a building. He fires once... and immediately everyone sees him. The nearest enemy troops are at least 200 meters away.

There's no way that could happen. A single guy, hidden in a building...fires one time, and is immediately spotted.

I'm aware of the issues concerning relative spotting, but that isn't the point. NO ONE should be able to see a sniper after he fires one time, unless the spotter happens to be very close.

That's my thought, anyway.

[David Aitken]

What have we here... aha. The second link may be of interest to you.

At witch distance a sniper can shoot

Snipers should be VERY hard to detect and identify

Snipers versus Sharpshooters, FYI

[Sgt. Beavis]

Ah, thanks for the info

I know I should have used the search, but it almost never moves faster than a startled sloth when I look for something

[Gyrene]

Sgt Beavis, to boil it all down:

If you don't give your sharpshooters any firing orders, but let them work on their own, they are very difficult to spot.

If you give them orders, they'll shoot even when it's not in their best interest to do so.

Gyrene

[Determinant]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt. Beavis:

I've noticed this a bunch of times. I have a sniper in the top floor of a building. He fires once... and immediately everyone sees him. The nearest enemy troops are at least 200 meters away.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But they fail to spot the shooter on the grassy knoll.

You may well have a point...

[Richard Morgan]

As an ex sniper myself, I would make the following comments. Avoid isolated cover - isolated buildings are a classic example. Also fire from cover in depth, making full use of shadow. Snipers (in the British Army at anyrate)are so heavily cammed up that in woods or scrub you will really only ever find one if you trip over him. We trained - did all our stalking to get within 300m of our target, which was often closer than necessary. 400m was our standard range At that range, we could reliably head shoot our targets. At 400 or even 300m, it would be next to impossible for someone on or near the receiving end to locate any of the guys I trained with. Another sniper searching for you might well though - and counter sniping was one of our primary roles. Enemy snipers were therefore always reckoned to be our very worst enemy. Perhaps in CMBO snipers ARE too easy to spot But then again, can anyone from BTS tell me if they have designed their snipers as just men with scoped rifles, or are supposed to be they the real gillie suited, cammed up article that I once was?

I await a reply with interest,

Cheers,

Richard.

[Richard Morgan]

OOps, that should read, or are they supposed to be the real gillie suited cammed up article that I once was?

[David Aitken]

All the answers are in the threads I provided links to above.

[Guest PondScum]

Talking of counter-sniping, has anyone actually achieved this in a game, i.e. killed an enemy sharpshooter with your own? Bonus points if you stalked him first

[MikeyD]

I suspect the CM snipers are just 'Saving Private Ryan'-style. Members of a company with high marksman scores issued a rifle with a scope. Just as the BAR man didn't go through 6 months of specialized training, I don't think the company marksman did either... at least not in '44.

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I suspect the CM snipers are just 'Saving Private Ryan'-style. Members of a company with high marksman scores issued a rifle with a scope. Just as the BAR man didn't go through 6 months of specialized training, I don't think the company marksman did either... at least not in '44.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If this is the case why weren't honest to goodness "snipers" also included in the game - the type of soldier described by Richard Morgan above? Weren't the "sharpshooter" type you are describing typically organic to infantry squads? Why segregate them from their squad? If you segregate sharpshooters from their organic squads why not segregate out two man scout sections for US Army Infantry Squads, or 3 men LMG sections from German infantry squads? Just curious.

Question for Richard Morgan: Did you typically operate in two man sniper teams….observer and shooter? Do you know if WWII "honest to goodness snipers" typically operated in two man teams…observer & shooter?

An additional question for Richard: I recently obtained a Soviet WWII training manual for "snipers". In this manual it describes maximum effective engagement ranges for snipers should not exceed approx 900m. Does this seem like an overly excessive range for a reasonable hit probability?

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ]

[David Aitken]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Jeff Duquette wrote:

If this is the case why weren't honest to goodness "snipers" also included in the game<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because they are outwith CM's scope. They have no place in an infantry battle. It can take a true sniper hours to stalk and kill his target. Good sniper targets also tend to be rather elusive in a full-scale firefight.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Why segregate them from their squad?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that you can assign them individual targets. An entire squad blazing away at a TC will just force him to button up, whereas a marksman can hit him before he has the chance. I also gather that marksmen were used as outposts and bluffs to spot the enemy or fool them as to the position of your forces.

[Richard Morgan]

Jeff,

We worked in pairs. The No 2 would typically be armed with LSW (long barrelled SA80 on bipod) to give sniper back-up after he had made his hit (about the only practical use I have found for that apology for an LMG.) No, I don't know whether they did it that way in the British Army in WW2. The Russians, I have always felt have always been ahead of us when it comes to sniping. They have them at platoon level, with us it is company.

There seems to be a distaste in the British peacetime army for snipers. This is possibly because every sniper - who has to have a high degree of iniative (goes with the territory) - represents a section/platoon commander effectively removed from the company. Also, there is a universal dislike/hatred for snipers among the military. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA FOR A SNIPER TO GET CAPTURED ALIVE - YOU TEND TO LOSE YOUR TESTICLES!!!!! :eek: And finally, depending on wind conditions, 900m is not excessive - if you know what you are doing. I would prefer to be a bit closer though

Hope that answers your questions.

Richard.

[Jeff Duquette]

Richard

Thanks for the erudite reply to my questions.

Please bear with me as I have not done a huge amount of reading on honest to goodness snipers, and I'm certainly no expert on infantry tactics. I did recently come across a fairly interesting German WWII training film on "honest to goodness" sniper training http://ihffilm.com/379.html .

During the film numerous Eastern Front sniper veterans narrate some of their various engagements against the Red Army…while the film reenacts these engagements. All for the benefit of the fresh "jäger kinder" going through their paces in advanced individual sniper training. In at least two of these recounts veteran German snipers talk about being employed in an over-watch mode for assaults of larger infantry units (platoon\companies). Seems to have been common practice for German "snipers" to support assaults from camouflaged positions. What are your thoughts regarding your own training experiences and use of snipers as overwatch elements for infantry assaults?

[ 09-21-2001: Message edited by: Jeff Duquette ]

[Richard Morgan]

Jeff,

Thanks for the website, looks like an interesting book. With regard to supporting attacks, we were also trained as MFC's (Mortar Fire Controllers.) If you ever play Steel Panthers World At War, you'll find that it models that aspect of sniping well. We would make good use of aerial photos and move into position at night. Anyone who looked important (section commander upwards) was liable to get hit.

I did my course with (among others)some Coldstream Guardsmen in the Catterick training area. One of them told me a lovely story about how when using SAWS kit (lazer kit that bleeps when you get hit) One of their snipers managed to take out the enemy CO within half an hour of an exercise beginning Getting paid to shoot officers was definitely my idea of a good scam.

"Ten men well led will beat a hundred without head" :cool:

Regards,

Richard.

[Jeff Duquette]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Richard Said: Getting paid to shoot officers was definitely my idea of a good scam.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually the reference I indicated is a German WWII training film with several east front vet. snipers narrating.

I did due a bit of digging and it seems Soviet WWII snipers were typically employed in teams of two men. An observer and shooter. Sniper teams in the Red Army were apparently organic to infantry platoons. They also seem to have been regularly employed in infantry assaults as over-watch elements, and were trained to focus their skills on officers as well as crew served weapons…LMG\MMG\HMG teams etc.

This is an interesting bit from: “Soviet Sniper’s Handbook, 1942”, translated by Maj. James Gebhardt. A translation of the original 1942 Soviet Sniper's Handbook. http://home.earthlink.net/~edpm3/RMT.html

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ACTIONS OF A SNIPER TEAM IN OFFENSIVE COMBAT

In offensive combat sniper teams receive missions directly from the platoon commander.

Normally snipers are assigned the following tasks:

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>1) To destroy the fire assets of those enemy units that are located in the security zone and have begun to withdraw to the forward edge of their own defences and which by their fire can interfere with the advance of the platoon;

2) To destroy the enemy's command component in order to disrupt a planned and organised withdrawal and to introduce confusion into the enemy ranks;

3) To find and destroy those enemy firing assets that are conducting fire from the forward edge of the defence and interfering with the advance of our own units.

A sniper equipped with binoculars and a telescopic rifle sight should spot these targets first and then quickly destroy them, clearing the way for our unit's advance.

Sometimes snipers operate as members of squads executing special combat missions on the directions of the platoon commander. In such cases snipers will receive their tasks from the squad commanders. As the platoon closes with the enemy in the course of the battle, the platoon or squad commander designates targets and in which sequence they should be destroyed. Sniper, bear in mind that if your commander does not assign you tasks, you are required on your own initiative to search out targets and independently destroy the most important of them.

Always remain close to the commander to receive your orders more quickly. Take care to remain concealed during movement, carefully covering your observation equipment, especially in clear weather, so that a flash of reflected light does not reveal your presence and position to the enemy. During movement in sunny weather cover your observation equipment with its carrying bag or case. After receiving your combat mission and sector of observation and fire, quickly choose your operating position and make note of reference points. Study the route to the newly selected position and choose intermediate stopping points along this route.

As a rule, in the course of an attack each sniper pair exchanges roles between them. But in the heat of battle, when there are many targets and it is easy to determine their importance, both snipers should conduct firing, advising each other about their chosen targets.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Regarding David Aiken’s comments above:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Because they are outwith CM's scope. They have no place in an infantry battle. It can take a true sniper hours to stalk and kill his target. Good sniper targets also tend to be rather elusive in a full-scale firefight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Based upon the little bit of research I have done on the employment of Red Army and German Army snipers I would have to disagree that sniper teams are inappropriate to the scope of Combat Mission. They are – at least in the Red Army – an organic asset at a level as low as the infantry platoon and appear to be an integral part of common infantry tactics.

[lcm1947]

Say Morgan. What caliber did you shoot and what rifle? I assume scoped but did you ever practice without scope in case that happened or would you just call it a day? Also what kind of bullet grouping could you guys get if you even did that? And if you did group what amount of shots per group? Thanks.

[Richard Morgan]

ICM1947

I first used the L42, which was basically a converted Lee-Enfield No4T and subsequently the L96 which replaced it. This was made by Accuracy International and was basically a Mauser action rifle with a target stock, Schmidt & Bender 6x scope, an unusual arse about face safety catch and detachable 11 round box magazines. Both rifles were 7.62mm (308 in American parlance) Each rifle would group into an inch at 100m. 5 round groups were the norm for zeroing. It is a long time ago now, but as I recall, the L96 came with iron sights - a rather weedy rear aperture leaf and blade foresight. I remember using them, but this was unusual. When I left, the British Army were testing various 50 cal sniper rifles. I WOULD HAVE LOVED TO HAVE USED ONE OF THOSE. However, stalking with a great heavy lump of metal like that would have been a real problem :mad: Hope that answers your questions.

Cheers,

Richard.

[Pak40]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt. Beavis:

There's no way that could happen. A single guy, hidden in a building...fires one time, and is immediately spotted.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One shot in Combat Mission is 2 or 3 shots in real life. This would help explain how your sharp shooters are being spotted.