Brits 2inch mortars

[David Stone]

I was unaware that British Airborne platoons all had 2inch mortars with them...

In alot of reading about Osterbeek & Arnhem, I have never come across any mention of them. Now, I have read about Frost's 3 inch mortars at the bridge but never a whisper of 2inchers.

Any insight into their usage, how prevalent they were, etc etc ???

Stone

[WendellM]

Forty's British Army Handbook has an August 1944 TO&E for an Airborne Division that lists 46 2-inchers and 56 3-inchers. The 3-inchers are shown distributed 4 each to mortar platoons attached to the HQ companies, but I don't see the 2-inchers.

The description lists the 2-inch as a platoon mortar which could be carried into action by one man (plus some ammunition). It also mentions that it could be fired horizontally for street fighting. They remained in service 25 years after the end of the war. Weight 18.96 lb., bomb weight 2.25 lbs., range 100-500 yd., ROF 5 rpm.

Wendell

[Holdit]

I seem to remember from somewhere that all British infantry platoons had a 2" mortar attached to the platoon HQ. Instead of a bipod, it had webbing round the barrel so it could be gripped by the hand. (I think it's the one Jack Hawkins uses in Bridge on the River Kwai). It must have been very quick to get into action, and I get the impression that sighting was by guesstimation and trial shots, so they would be unlikely to have been used in an indirect fire role, which might account for their not being mentioned much - more thought would probably go into the placing of the 3-inchers.

[Bullethead]

Been waiting for somebody to bring this up . A while back, I was considering starting a thread entitled "The 2" Mortar: Effective Weapon or Cruel Joke?" I've been playing with these things somewhat lately and have come to the conclusion they belong in the 2nd category.

Their first failing is that they have a max range of only about 400m. This means they have to almost be right up with the forward grunts to accomplish the traditional light mortar mission of taking out MG nests and such.

But this brings up the 2nd failing: they are SLOW. They can't run, they can only "move" like a 60mm mortar. So, due to their short range, if you want your grunts to have 2" mortar support, you either have to slow your advance to the same speed as the 2" mortar teams, or you have to provide vehicles for the mortars. This is a good use for Universal Carriers, but unfortunately the mortars can't shoot while mounted so you have to wait for them to get out and set up. Plus the vehicles are easy to spot so you lose surprise for your advance.

Finally, assuming you somehow overcome the range and speed problems above, what have you got? A glorified grenade lobber is all. It's not very accurate and its blast radius seems much smaller than its CEP, so the odds of doing any damage, especially against troops in foxholes, is very small. It pretty much requires a direct hit to even have a chance of doing damage.

Now, of all these failings, most seem quite reasonable to me. The short range and low power are explained in 3 words: not enough gun. And the inaccuracy is reasonable given that it's a freetube-only weapon.

But I do have to question the validity of the "move-only" speed restriction. The 2" mortar, its ammo, and ancillary equipment, was much lighter than even a 60mm mortar. In fact, it's rather in the same weight and bulk class as zooks, schrecks, and PIATs. All of these types of teams can run for at least short distances, so I think it would be better if 2" mortar teams could do this as well.

OTOH, maybe having 2" mortars be "move-only" is realistic. This could explain why Monty was a "plodder"--it wasn't his fault, it was because his grunts didn't want to get out of coverage of their pathetic 2" mortars

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-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[MikeO]

Good points about movement rates, Bullethead. According to 'The World War 2 Tommy' by Martin Bradley and Richard Ingram:

'Originally, in its prewar format, the 2in had most of the refinements (and disadvantages) of large calibre mortars. However, it was soon simplified by reducing the size of the baseplate, deleting the collimatting sight, and reducing the weight from 19lbs to 10.5lbs, making it a perfectly practical weapon for the infantry platoon. The 2.5lb bomb had a maximum range of 470 yards, and standard rate of accurate fire was eight rounds per minute. A shortened 14in barrel version was issued to Airborne troops, the shortened barrel reducing the range to 350 yards.

The mortar and one ammo carrier were a reasonable load for one man, and his No.2 carried at least 12 rounds; but the section rifleman usually had to carry extra ammunition.'

[Formerly Babra]

Mortar units are not exactly the glory boys of WW2. Small wonder they get little mention, though they inflicted most of the casualties.

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It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE.

[Eridani]

I used to think the 2" was the most worthless unit in the game...

I have found them to be a very limited nich weapon...

If I group of all of the mortars in a company plus buy two extra's (at 9pts a piece its really cheap), I get a platoon of 5 mortars, lead by my company hq. now this little platoon I've found to be an excellent "clear 1 forest free" card, basically I usually can move it into position, and firing all mortars together, clear one small forest for no losses to myself... I've used them successfully MANY times in this regard.

I do also have to question the logic of having them slow however... there's no way that a 2" mortar tube w/out optics and stand is at all heavier than a zook or schreck... I think that they're speed should be increased to at least that of a piat/schreck, and probably up to a full run...

If I'm mistaken I'd love to know why... I'll fully admit I'm no grognard and I only have a basic understanding of what I am talking about.

I also might ad, I could see raising their cost a few points if you do give them run ability because that would make them more effective troops

oh well

enough rambling on my part-

-EridanMan

[Colin]

I too would be interested in why you cannot run with 2in mortars. Just bringin it up again.

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And if we abandon any platform, I can assure you it will not be the Macintosh.

-Steve

My website!

[Bullethead]

Eridani said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I have found them to be a very limited nich weapon... If I group of all of the mortars in a company plus buy two extra's (at 9pts a piece its really cheap), I get a platoon of 5 mortars, lead by my company hq. Now this little platoon I've found to be an excellent "clear 1 forest free" card<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except for buying the extras, I do the same thing. Basically let the grunts advance at best speed until they run into trouble while the mortars straggle along behind. By the time the grunts have died enough to locate the source of their trouble, the mortars will hopefully be close enough to shoot at it (assuming there's any cover that's both behind the grunts and within range of the target).

Trouble is, I'm not finding the mortars to be much help even so. They just don't pack enough punch. Maybe having a couple others would help by increasing the odds of a few bombs from the total bombardment actually landing close enough to an enemy unit to do some damage. I'll have to try that next time.

But even so, if you run into something that can shoot up grunts effectively from further than about 400m, you're just out of luck. I guess the Germans had the same problem (as well as excessive weight for the limited bang), leading them to drop their 50mm mortar by this point in the war.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I also might ad, I could see raising their cost a few points if you do give them run ability because that would make them more effective troops<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

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-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[guachi]

I use the mortars to harass an enemy unit while other units maneuver. Or to target guns. I took out an AA gun in a PBEM game that was bothering my units with some concerted fire from the 2in mortars.

And you can always use it against enemy basket catchers, err, enemy halftracks.

Jason

[scaclark]

The same 2 inch mortars were still being used in some places by the British Army 10 - 15 years ago - one per platoon I think - but the only rounds available for them were illumination.......and we still had to carry the damn things on exercise. They are pretty small and they sling (awkwardly) over your back as a secondary weapon. They would have fulfilled a useful role as the only guaranteed on-call indirect fire that a platoon or company would have. And running with them is not a problem...

[David Stone]

Anyone have info on the Brits use of them at Arnhem-- especially with 2 Para at the bridge?

[gashford]

I am afraid I don't know much about the use of these weapons at Arnhem or WW2, I have however used the modern British equivalient - the 51mm mortar - with both smoke and HE bombs.

In my experience and much to the fun of our TS you are expected to stay up with the rest of the troop or section in a firefight if you are carrying one of these weapons. The ammunition was spread throughout the section and indeed the weapon (I was taught) was considered a troop level weapon.

Not much of a burst radius, 11m lethality if I remember correctly (it was ten years ago) and you can just forget about smoke except as some sort of marker.

Anyway enough memories for now, the point I am trying to make is that for the modern equvalient of the old 2" mortar, it was expected that the unlucky guy carrying would be expected to keep and fight with the rest of us, just ensuring that the weapon was ready if needed.

Hope this helps you in some way.

[David Stone]

Thanks everyone. Increasing the 2inchers speed of movement makes sense to me as well.

Although, I wonder what CM uses as the 'default' amount of ammo? A large ammo load could be why they are slower in CM?

Stone

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Stone:

I wonder what CM uses as the 'default' amount of ammo?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At purchase screen it says 22.

Don't know if that includes smoke.

[Sailor Malan]

2" are great if you use them carefully -long range (relatively) harassing fire. Dont expect big results, or effects in buildings or anything. The best use I have ever had wes 4 of them firing at a long thin wood the bad guys were advancing along. I stopped 4 or 5 squads cold with airbursts. They legged it and were never seen again. Lucky I guess!

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The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall)

[Seanachai]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sailor Malan:

2" are great if you use them carefully -long range (relatively) harassing fire. Dont expect big results, or effects in buildings or anything. The best use I have ever had wes 4 of them firing at a long thin wood the bad guys were advancing along. I stopped 4 or 5 squads cold with airbursts. They legged it and were never seen again. Lucky I guess!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll go with this and some of the more positive appraisals. This is a limited weapon, but one with a definite niche. The more of them you can flock together, the more their impact. I use them to suppress MGs, knock out guns, kill HTs/Open Top vehicles (they've been superb for this...don't know how that will change with vers. 1.03, which reduces their effectiveness somewhat), and, in a group, interdict or harass enemy staging areas. When I began this game, I used to look at mortars and ask myself what I was supposed to do with the useless little gits. Now I have a real affinity for them. And I'm still learning how to use them to maximum effect. As a humble, hat in hand, non-Grognard, it wouldn't seem odd to me if their movement rate was somewhat increased.

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After witnessing exceptional bravery from his Celtic mercenaries, Alexander the Great called them to him and asked if there was anything they feared. They told him nothing, except that the sky might fall on their heads.

[This message has been edited by Seanachai (edited 07-29-2000).]

[von Lucke]

I just look on 'em as very heavy grenade launchers. Now, if their crew would just step out a little faster...