JediJobu Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Ok, maybe not so complex and what I've tried of the searches hasn't yielded much so I don't know if this has been covered or not. This is certaintly not a gripe about the game, just a though and I realize that implementation might be very difficult, but, might add some realism to the game... I'll try my best here, I'm not the world's greatest write by any stretch... I find it "unrealistic" that when say a tank at one end of the map sees an enemy unit that, every other unit on your side can see that unit. They may NOT have LOS, but for all intents and purposes, all your other units know that where that enemy unit is at. I was just trying to think if any modification of this would make any changes to gameplay? I realize that since only "one person", you, the player, is in command of everything and therefore, if you know where a unit is, then "all" your units know this. Would it make any difference that when having a particular unit selected, to change the marker of the enemy unit or even take the enemy unit of the map if your chosen unit has not done anything to identify where an enemy unit is? I feel like i'm stumbling over my own feet on what I'm trying to ask but not sure how else to ask it. just a thought... Any ideas? COmments.. Maybe I'm just having another boring day at work....Yeah, this could just be it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 What you're asking for is called relative spotting, and it's been often requested. BTS has stated that it's a major change to the engine, and as such won't be going in until CMII (the next-gen engine, not CM2, the Ostfront game). A search on 'relative spotting' will probably explain the issue better than I could. ------------------ Soy super bien soy super super bien soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jasper Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Let's see if I understand this. So an infantry units spots the enemy. Therfore you as a player see it. Then you zoom over to the tank - who doesn't see it. After writing a flame about infantry / armor communication, you then drive the tank so it can see it and blast it - or - you have the tank area fire (or fire blind) at the enemy. So the effect is because you the player can see if - then all of your units can see it. Unless you pretend that they don't. Can't you do that now - just pretend that unit A hasn't spotted something that unit B has? I do the same thing. I have problems with the "commander jet pack" syndrome, so I don't go flying behind the hill to see what I shouldn't see. (Works only the first time you play - then the discovery thrill is ruined forever) I don't suggest that the game need limit me. Personnally I got a unique gaming expirence playing CM - and I've played a lot of different games. I saw how different the same piece of terrain looks from two directions. Then playing that demo Chance Meeting (or whatever it's called) - I thought I knew the terrain pretty well after playing the Americans. Then when I switched sides, I found out just how many Germans there were (I couldn't really tell because my armor really chewed them up on the wooded hill) and how different the battle field looked. Thanks BTS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Capt Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 I will be very interested (read:worried) to see how the problem of relative spotting is addressed. The only way to truly remove the "godlike" position the player is in, would be to drop him (or her for the two girls out there who actually play the game...now, now lets not start something) into the chair of the Bn/Coy Comd. Restrict to a first person view and only get info by radio, runners and your own POV. Plot pins on a map and send orders the same way (radio, runner etc). This would be very realistic but I don't think many paople would find it very fun. In fact it would be a little to much like work (ie frustrating "What the hell did that guy say...The enemies where?!) I think a few really hardcore players who really need to get out more would go for it but you can forget mass market appeal. I think CM spotting is fine the way it is. There is just enough Fog of War to make you wonder just what the hell is going on but not so much as to make you wish you had bought Diablo II instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mayer Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 Perhaps the solution would be to institute some modeling of communications in re intelligence reporting. Say a recon vehicle scouting ahead of your force sees an enemy. That enemy wouldn't appear on the map until a simulated contact report was radioed back to the simulated HQ. In the case of well-trained, well-equipped (i.e., they have radios and know how to use them) recon troops, this might be during the same "playback" in which the contact occurs; the result would be pretty much what you have now, with the difference that you wouldn't see the enemy unit or marker until say :30 in the playback instead of :10 or whatever. But, say the unit doing the spotting is a green Volksgrenadier squad, out of command, with no radio. Say they spot an enemy unit during the turn. That unit might not appear on the map until the next turn, meaning you would have had to plot your moves without knowing that guy was there, even though he was technically "spotted" the turn before. This isn't a perfect system, of course; your units would be taking fire from "invisible" sources, for instance. That's not necessarily bad, and happens now anyhow, when you get fired on by units no one can actually see; this would just extend that a bit conceptualy. It would have the benefit of making recon units more valuable (they'd be able to communicate spotting info faster and more reliably), and would further differentiate troops by quality level perhaps. Just an idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted December 21, 2000 Share Posted December 21, 2000 You guys are making this *way* more complicated than it actually is. relative spotting simply means that each unit has a list of what enemy units it has spotted. Right now there is a global list of spotted units. Realtive spotting jsut means that while your MG team might have spotted that bazooka, it doesn't mean that your tank has, and hence, your tank may not respond to the bazooka team. In both cases the player sees the sum of what his units see. You can claim this in unrealistic, but you can also claim that wargamers have very little interest in realism when it comes to actuallly playing the game and controlling the units. Otherwise, a "realistic" command systme in CM missions would mean that the only thing the player would ever see is the inside of his CP, and the reports of what is going on. Jeff Heidman Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Mayer Posted December 27, 2000 Share Posted December 27, 2000 Perhaps, Jeff, but I think it'd be best if they integrated some sort of visual feedback (or lack thereof, as the case may be <g>) for relative spotting. I.e., I think the idea of limiting the display of enemy units based on reporting times and efficiency adds a lot to the proposed system. OTOH, I'd be satisfied with a stripped-down system of relative spotting that just denied you the ability to target enemies not directly spotted by the unit doing the targeting. Of course, this doesn't address the problem of you ordering that unit to move in ways inspired by the presence of the unit it actually can't see <g>. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Beman Posted December 27, 2000 Share Posted December 27, 2000 Robert, IMHO <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>ordering that unit to move in ways inspired by the presence of the unit it actually can't see<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> is NOT a problem. What's the problem with the company commander telling his tank "some infantry have spotted a group of machine guns over there. I want you to drive over that way until you see the enemy and then hammer them into the hillside." The only problem with this is that we have total control over every unit (i.e. you get to know what every unit knows and tell the tank to move the instant you want to). But taking away this control will, IMHO, severely detract from the game. I play CM so I can conduct a coordinated attack and "be there" all the time. Call me spoiled, but I don't want to play if I can only give orders to units within a certain radius of X, or who have the correct radio set and frequency, etc. DjB DjB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Posted December 27, 2000 Share Posted December 27, 2000 Those that haven't already should move this discussion over to the "What Is Relative Spotting?" thread going on now. Steve has posted some responses there. ------------------ You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!? Madmatt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts