Is CM computer ASL, BTS says...

[kump]

Had to repost one of Steve's replies in a post titled in a unusual way, just in case some fly right by it Question pertained to how much CM was based on ASL. I need to save this somewhere, this question is bound to be asked a lot.

Steve Quote:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Charles started out trying to make ASL in computer form with a few improvements almost 3 years ago. Within a few weeks of the intial design (i.e. before one line of code was written) he gave up This was long before the break with AH.

ASL is desgined, from its core to finishing touches, to work as a paper and cardboard game. Therefore, no point trying to hobble a computer program based on inherently board game constraints.

In short... there is practically nothing of ASL in CM. Or any other game for that matter. Instead, we looked at the history books and technical documentation for our inspiration. Personally, I have never played ASL or SL, so my influence on CM obviously could not have come from either game.

We certainly think the break was for the better, for a LOT of reasons. CM is doing things that no board and paper wargame could ever dream of doing. In fact, no other existing computer wargame is doing what CM is And because the data in CM is based on real world numbers, and real world physics, it has a degree of realism over ASL in a HUGE way.

OK, I'm really tired... but I think that made sense

Steve<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Oldgamer]

I don't normally reply, but felt inspired due to long association with ASL. First of all, I LOVE CM, and I’ve only played the demo (my copy is hopefully in the mail by now?). But, I’ll continue to play ASL. For what it is, including its cardboard limitations, it does a remarkable job still of simulating what it intends. Also, any experienced ASL players can’t help but feel very strong similarities, regardless of whether these are due to CM programmers’ experience with ASL or just that both due a fine job of simulating the same time period. Although I do agree with your point about CM’s realism vs. ASL, it seems an odd comment since you also stated you’ve never seen ASL, or its earlier sibling. You might be surprised at how accurate the modeling in ASL is in most areas, again considering the limitations.

Matters not though, as I agree with you that the modeling in CM is astounding, and I can’t wait to play the real deal (my wife’s not as enthusiastic, for some reason).

Just my two cents…

[Epée]

I love ASL, and it was because of ASL that I became interested in Military History. It was because of ASL that I found CM.

I dont think I will stop playing ASL after I get CM, and there is something about boardgames, however limited they might be, that cannot be substituted by computer games. I am happy to have them both...

Epée

[kipanderson]

Hi,

I am so old I am really a SL man but have played ASL. For me CM "hits the same spot" as SL and ASL.With CM Charles and Steve have answered my wildest dreams, I never thought anyhting so good would come along. Things like the armour penetration figures have to be correct or I am not interested in the game, they are correct, too good to be true.

All the best,

Kip.

PS. That does not mean that when I get my copy I will agree with "every" stat in CM, but nerds like me never do, that is part of the fun.

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[This message has been edited by kipanderson (edited 06-28-2000).]

[Joe Shaw]

I too am an "old timer" and was primarily involved with SL rather than ASL. But for me it was almost more trouble than it was worth because of the damned rules you had to memorize. I especially recall getting a copy of "GI, Anvil of Victory" (you think that was bad, the one on the early war was "Crescendo of Doom") in which they tried to cut down the size of the manual by using ... abbreviations! So not only did you have to remember scores of rules about Personal Portage Points (i.e. how much a man or team can carry) but you had to remember that it was that they were referring to when they used ... P.P.P.

CM is the answer to my prayers, I can play the game and let the damn computer remember the rules.

Joe

[Guest Big Time Software]

My main problem with SL/ASL was the UberPanzerKitty (sold separately) that, usually just before I was about to claim victory, would walk across the mapboards and swat the counters like little mice. Bad Kitty! BAD KITTY!!

I liked to think of it as a kind of abstract air strike.

Charles

[Lorak]

Charles,

Reminds me of a board game I bought around 1990 or so "M.B.T."

a friend of my from sl/asl days decided to play it. Needless to say I think it had a lot of popaganda built in. After a couple of games we decided that russian tanks just couldn't take out an abrams.

Needless to say The box wasn't opened again.

Lorak

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software:

My main problem with SL/ASL was the UberPanzerKitty (sold separately) that, usually just before I was about to claim victory, would walk across the mapboards and swat the counters like little mice. Bad Kitty! BAD KITTY!!

I liked to think of it as a kind of abstract air strike.

Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL - is that by any chance a derivation of the Schwere Volksfestspüle Sdkfz.123456©

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Andreas

[Notnowjohn]

I have been playing this game for about a week now and while I simply cannot imagine life without CM (ask my wife), there were certain things about SL/ASL that made it very, very special to me.

One thing I truly miss and will probably never experience with CM was the camraderie, the excitement, the boredom, the arguments, the sheer thrill, and, dare I say it, the good ole' male bonding that happened when four or five good friends would gather around a table made of sawhorses and 4'X8' plywood and play with TINY little counters for hours and days at a time.

Sigh...

I really miss those days.

Neal, if you're listening, you would have LOVED this game.

[patboivin]

I was surprised to read this statement, because in the CM forum ASL comes up time and time again.

Also the time periods chosen for the different CM releases almost mirror those for ASL, i.e. Squad Leader, then Cross of Iron, then Crescendo of Doom for the earlier years...

At least the first three seem to match.

Only difference is that ASL attempted a Pacific module, while CM probably will not.

I loved playing ASL, I must have spent hundreds of hours playing that game. For a while friends of mine and I would play blind, i.e. we had two copies of the maps and a referee would walk and forth between our setups to tell us what we could see, what we couldn't see... Very interesting.

I think CM is as realistic as ASL, I don't know if we can ever know whether they truly are realistic, esp. when it comes to squads' performance -- in ASL I had a few problems with the concept of morale, in CM I don't know how the AI controls the squads but no matter what game you play rules and guidelines won't mirror what real people do on a battlefield, in my opinion.

Statistically speaking it may seem correct or most likely that a squad would behave a certain way, I am not sure that human beings are always predictable.

ASL tried to put this in by having beserk squads, it was fun but I don't know if that was realistic.

I am just rambling I will stop now -- I don't have my copy of CM yet, I live in Canada you see we have a peculiar postal service up here...