Penetration -> only button?

[Webs]

Oddest thing happened to me. My 'zook hit a Stug at 55m and scored a front upper hull penetration on a Stug, but all that happened was that the Stug buttoned up and reversed away.

This happen to anybody else? You'd think a penetration would pretty much put an end to that machine.

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Laurie Nyveen a.k.a. Webs, member of the WarBirds training staff

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Editor, Netsurfer Digest - http://www.netsurf.com/nsd/index.html

101 Sqn opus-in-progress - http://101.warbirds.org/

[Fionn]

Well, not every penetration kills the vehicle. You probably killed one of the crew of the STuG though which is important since it forces it to button.

I've even had a HT survive a zook hit. rare but possible. lost 5 of the 8-man squad though.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Miles]

I got an upper hull penetration on a Tiger at

over 100 meters by a bazooka and the Tiger backed up to increase the range, then eventually turned tail and left the field. I was amazed that a bazooka could do that to a Tiger from the front.

Miles

[Fionn]

A bazooka is a chemical energy penetrator independent of range.

Basically it has the potential to kill ANY vehicle that moves if it hits. It may not always kill the vehicle but it has the potential to.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[Mark L]

Webs: It happened to me once too. I thought it was cool, even if I was the target of the StuGs attention.

Fionn: Even the front of a Tiger, for instance? I guess I'm gonna have to go look at those CM stats again!

Mark

[Dar]

Due to the FoW settings, you may not know what the final outcome of your hit was. You say it penetrated, but you may not know that it disabled the gun and/or took out a crew member.

I've had a few AFVs effectively rendered useless in this manner, although they were still manned and mobile.

Dar

[Guest L Tankersley]

A bazooka could probably penetrate the front armor of a Tiger I on a good day. (Check the armor thickness/penetration data in game to double-check.) Against a King Tiger, I wouldn't hold my breath, unless maybe you hit a vulnerable spot (critical hit).

Leland J. Tankersley

[Fionn]

Well, a bazooka can penetrate 97mm of armour set at 0 degrees, 84 set at 30 and 48 set at 60 degrees

The Tiger Is armour is basically 100mm set at 0 degrees.

Thus 97mm is within that range where it will sometimes penetrate and sometimes not. A bazooka isn't a surefire Tiger killer in the same way as it would be against a PZ IV or something (which could still get lucky and survive) BUT I'd be quite happy to let a zook shoot at the front of a tiger since I'd know even if it didn't kill the Tiger it might well kill the TC or damage the main gun or cause other such damage.

97mm is close enough to 100 that you're going to get some penetrations which totally kill and a lot more which do bits of damage.

Remember, a tank which has lost it's TC is almost half-dead. It is intensely vulnerable to ANY infantry or armour which sneaks up on it and really needs to be pulled to the rear to be babysat if any enemy are still around. Your opponent will know this so even damaging a Tiger by killing the TC is good for you.

BTW a schreck will penetrate

170 at 0 degrees

147 at 30 degrees

85 at 60 degrees

which is why I like schrecks although I hate that they can't run . I know it's realistic but my job as a German commander would be so much easier if schreck's could run.

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Fionn Kelly

Manager of Historical Research,

The Gamers Net - Gaming for Gamers

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 11-17-99).]

[johnnymo]

I had a Stug take TWO penetrating hits from my Hellcat (one turret, one hull) and it STILL turned and killed the Hellcat, then went merrily back to bombarding my infantry.

I think I'm cursed.

[Guest John Maragoudakis]

A bazooka at a wood line is a safe place to setup. Once it fires, it can retreat into the woods. It might not be worth the effort for the opposing player to go chasing it with more assets cause 1)who knows what else is in the woods waiting and 2)The point is to win the game not kill zooks. If it got one of your units, get over it and move on unless the zook is at a chokepoint. Then you have to dig him out. They die fast with a couple of squads thrown at them.

In my ongoing game with BDW, I assaulted a house where he ran a zook into. I had spotted the US unit just as it ran into the house. Then I ordered 2 squads to rush from 2 different directions with support fire from 4 directions. The house was cleared. Lesson. This was in last defence. BDW is playing the US side. He took a risk running up the zook to the house nearest the german advance in the center of the map. A very obvious move once spotted. I only attacked the zook because it threatened the chokepoint, not because I like killing zooks. If it was off to the side, I would have left it alone.

However, a little while later BDW got one of my halftracks approaching his woodline. I suppose his zook was hidden there. In that case, I never saw a glimps of the zook and ventured far too close to the tree line. Lesson learned for both of us.

[This message has been edited by John Maragoudakis (edited 11-17-99).]

[SimonFox]

"I got an upper hull penetration on a Tiger at over 100 meters by a bazooka"

Given the ballistic flight path of the bazooka at this range and the high angle of incidence wouldn't this in all likelyhood been a top hit and therefore much more likely to penetrate the thinner armour.

Fionn said

"Remember, a tank which has lost it's TC is almost half-dead."

IMO CM falls down a little bit here by excessively penalising the tank. The TC was very vulnerable but the benefits of exposure far outweighed the risk (to the tank). One of the advantages of a 5 man crew was the ability to reshuffle the crew in the event of the most common casualty to non AT fire, that of the TC. Furthermore tank crews were trained to operate multiple positions. In such circumstances the performance of the tank would be compromised by the loss of most likely the hull MG operated by the co-driver. Whoever took over the TC position would definitely go CE if the threat level subsided so in this respect I don't think CM is being realistic. It may seem minor but at CM's scale the effective loss of a single tank through injury to the TC can be critical.

I would also add that at least some of the graphics show both the driver and the commander exposed which from my reading is unrealistic unless the tank was in a parade! In reality if the main gun on most tanks had to fire it would be a very unpleasant experience for the driver if he had his head out.

[Cueball]

I read a first hand account somewhere where a bazooka team fired and penetrated the side of a PZIV. The hatches were blown open, but the crew closed them and the tank scooted away.

[K_Tiger]

I believe, that it is not so easy, to kill a tiger of in front with the Bazooka . As you have said already, which the optimal pennetration power is 97mm. The armor-plating of the tiger however always 100mm. Then you must hit also still in an direct graden angle. Therefore, the chances sink always further. With the slight range, one can assume, that the Bullet does not have just a stable flight path, which again a perfect shot excludes.I would credit me really only a shot of the back, and I have shot already times with a Bazooka.

[Jarmo]

Here's one in a million case, happened in my current PBEM game (Last Defence).

I assaulted with my three (empty) Halftracks straight into an ambush. Two bazookas, hiding in the woods, start firing from about 50 meters. Both concentrate on the closer HT. First, a miss. Second shot hits, a penetration, no casualties. Third shot, a miss. Fourth shot hits again, causing one casualty. The next round my infantry is all over the zooka teams

On another PBEM game, (this time as US) I did

a similar ambush using a HQ-team (my favourite cannon fodder). I couldn't believe my eyes when the HQ-officers blew up two HT:s with grenades.

I think I'm blessed

[Subvet]

I had a zook hit the gun of a mortar halftrack (SPW 250/7 if I remember correctly). It was a distant shot so the arc let the shell fly over the front armor of the halftrack and fall right inside and hit the gun tube. It caused a large explosion. I was amazed to see no damage and no crew casualties. I thought these guys had a charmed life... until next turn when it was destroyed by that same zook.

[Triumvir]

Fionn, are you sure that schreck teams can't run? I distinctly remember shuttling two schreck teams between various points in a village to destroy incoming armour. I think PIAT teams too can run.

Note that these results only obtain for short distances since after about 100m, all such teams' status drops to Tired/Weary.

As for drivers sticking their heads out, from at least one army's experience using tanks of roughly similar calibre, drivers might continue to keep their heads up when firing takes place simply because it lets them see where they're going.

If you've ever sat in the driver's seat of any IFV, you'll probably find that it is _painfully_ hard to see the road ahead. Most of my limited experience has been with M113s, but when you lock down an M113 and try to drive through the periscopes, it gets really hard on the driver.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Triumvir,

Fionn is not here to answer, so I'll respond to this thread from the grave

Schrecks were not able to run until one of the patches (I think). Charles found a way to penalize them enough for the physical effort that made it work from a realism standpoint.

As for remaining unbuttoned when within small arms range, your observations and comments are correct. There once was a discussion on this BBS about very high Israeli tank commander casualties during one of the nasty wars (7 Days War?) because they were traied to remain unbuttoned even when it was risky to do so.

CM allows you to do this. In fact, I usually keep my vehicles unbuttoned until I really get into the thick of it. At that point I tend to move my vehicles less and therefore being buttoned up is not so much of a liability and more of a safeguard. Losing a crew member of an AFV in CM sucks as I am sure you would agree with being the case in real life

Steve

[saru3000]

So does elevation and facing affect the chances for a penetration with a no-kill result?

Say you fire up at a sherman on a hill.Is there any greater chance ,that if you do get a penetration, that it'll enter the side and exit the top? Or having a shell pass through the sides of a halftrack.

[Fenris]

Hi Webs, I had a zook team put 2 (yes 2!) penetrating rounds into the upper hull of a StugIV the other week. The 3rd caused it to die. It was at about 20 meters and I was suitably dubious but hey, it's only happened.

Happy hunting,

Fen

[Triumvir]

Steve,

Just out of curiosity, why isn't Fionn here to respond? It's not somehow related to the "Pull a Fionn" command on CMHQ chat, is it?

As for Israeli TCs, they only went to closed-hatch work when they got the Merkavas. If I remember correctly, among the requirements for the Merkava was very good under-armour visibility.

When I was in, our armour doctrine was mostly lifted straight from the Israelis, which was why our TCs would always fight open-hatch. It didn't improve their morale much to know that <bignum> percent of TC casualties were fatalities (though the percentage of casualties was roughly the same as for any other combat speciality.)

Wherever possible, I keep my TCs open-hatch. I try my utmost to keep infantry sufficiently busy that they don't have time to shoot at that nice big hunk of metal 100m away that's laying the smack down on them.

Much like bringing 1800s artillery right up just behind the infantry to give the others a little taste of amatol...

[Head Mahone]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Webs:

Oddest thing happened to me. My 'zook hit a Stug at 55m and scored a front upper hull penetration on a Stug, but all that happened was that the Stug buttoned up and reversed away.

This happen to anybody else? You'd think a penetration would pretty much put an end to that machine.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find this to be quite realistic. Especially of the WWII era tanks with small (by todays standards) 75/76/105mm guns. You'll find that this situation happens often in C.M.. Just last night my one of my Panthers penetrated a Sherman 76mm twice from the front. The poor bastard never stopped firing back until it eventually received it's death blow. Three cheers for C.M., and the gaming pleasure its given me!

-Head

[Guest wwb_99]

And IIRC, the Israelis lifted the Commanders up policy fron the Germans. And I think the war to which you refer, Steve, was the Yom Kippur War. There the Isrealis had very high TC casualties, as well as officer casualties. Basically because in the first few days on the Golan, it was not unheard of for a Colonel to be leading a tank company at the front.

WWB

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Before battle, my digital soldiers turn to me and say,

Ave, Caesar! Morituri te salutamus.

[tss]

Head Mahone wrote:

I find this to be quite realistic. Especially of the WWII era tanks

with small (by todays standards) 75/76/105mm guns.

There's also an illustrating early-war example. However, it has even

smaller gun, a 47 mm one. Near Salla Germans hit and apparently

destroyed a T-26 with something, I don't know what. However, the

driver had survived and he manned the coaxial MG opening fire against

advancing Germans. They then bought forward a Somua to silence the MG.

The Somua hit T-26's turret four times, penetrating it each time but

causing no damage to the gunner. At that point the defender decided to

try to escape but he was killed by infantry fire.

- Tommi

[Dr. Brian]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dar:

Due to the FoW settings, you may not know what the final outcome of your hit was. You say it penetrated, but you may not know that it disabled the gun and/or took out a crew member.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, in my version of CM, when I knock out an enema tank, it says how. And, it says if there was gun damage. Mine does not say if there has been a crew lose though.

So, is Dar's statment correct regarding gun damage?

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Doc

God Bless Chesty Puller, Wherever He Is!

[Guest Big Time Software]

Triumvir, I don't want to rehash the whole Fionn thing, but the short of it is that he was banned from this forum for his inability to control his vile temper and personal grudges against a few other members. He was warned repeatedly about what would happen, and given about 4 major "second chances". He, of course, has his own perspective on what happened (and will tell it to anybody who cares, or doesn't care, to hear it). I can assure you that the other 4 or 5 people that were directly involved with the fiasco all strongly disagree with his PoV. On the one hand his absence here is greatly missed, but as a moderator my job has been a lot easier since his departure.

Dr. Brian... the notification text about what hits did was added after Dar's comments. While something like a penetration or a gun hit would likely be known, a crew hit would be difficult to determine in many cases. So we decided to not be specific about it and just show the tank buttoning up. You can guess pretty well what happened because of this.

Steve