Seven-Six-One

[Slapdragon]

In honor of the recent unpleasantness with children from the outback, which I lurked but did not add to, I felt it was a good idea to start developing a series of scenarios based on the 761st Tank Battalion in support of the 26th "Yankee" Infantry Division near the Moselle in November 1944. I have aerial photos of all the battlefields from 1950, and French geomaps of the whole Valley, plus a bunch of the oral histories that run down the 761st order of battle. I am planning four scenarios: "Come Out Fighting" (Vic-sur-Seille, 7 November), "The Panthers in the Snow" (Chateau-Salin, 8 November), "Caught in the Act" (Morville-ls-Vic, 9 November), and "River of Death" (Guebling, 16 November). These scenarios will hopefully honor a hard fighting tanker unit who had to wait 40 years for official recognition. (In one fabled case 761 was ambushed by an 88 battery, destroying 6 tanks in short order. The tank crews, many wounded or deafened, rallied and charged the battery on foot giving the rest of the unit time to withdraw).

My problem that I need help with is German order of battle. According to the oral histories they faced elements of the 12th Panzer Division, and I do not know anything about that unit (or even if they did face it). Does anyone have a line on German units defending the Sielle and Moselle in November 1944 which faced the 3rd Army?

[Slapdragon]

Also, if anyone has some lines on the 761 equippment it would help. Oral histories claim that they only had M4A3 tanks until 1945, and were never given 76 armed tanks, like several other indepedent tank battalions. Is their a confirmation on this?

Steve Jackson

[Guest Big Time Software]

I can't be much help here, but can confirm that some US tank units were stuck with the older model Shermans all the way through the war. Some, in fact, resisted the 76 armed Shermans as they found the 75 more practical on a day to day basis. Well, until the day you bumped into a dug in Panther

Steve

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

My problem that I need help with is German order of battle. According to the oral histories they faced elements of the 12th Panzer Division, and I do not know anything about that unit (or even if they did face it). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 12th Pz.Div operated in the East and ended the war in the Courland Pocket on 05.08.45.

Regards, John Waters

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"die verdammte Jabos".

[Guest Germanboy]

Couold it be that the German unit was either the 11th Panzer Division which had made it's way through the Montelimar gap to the Moselle area during the retreat of the 19th Army, or one of the two independent Panzer Brigades 106 and 112 IIRC? It could also have been the 21st, which was fighting in that area in October, according to Steidler 'Lost Batallions'.

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Andreas

[Abbott]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Couold it be that the German unit was either the 11th Panzer Division which had made it's way through the Montelimar gap to the Moselle area during the retreat of the 19th Army, or one of the two independent Panzer Brigades 106 and 112 IIRC? It could also have been the 21st, which was fighting in that area in October, according to Steidler 'Lost Batallions'.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me for being O/T but what is IIRC?

[Mike Oberly]

If I Recall Correctly,Abbott.

[Slapdragon]

If it was in Moselle, it could be the 11th. Oral histories are great historical tools, I use them in much of my research, but you find that eye witness accounts are slightly inaccurate in small details. Thus, if you read other units oral histories the interviewees know in depth what they did and can recount great detail about running through this field, doing this thing, or watching this event. In the case of 761, the oral histories are better than the reports from 3rd Army, since apparently someone in Army would trash can medal requests and action reports as unimportant.

Oral histories though are rarely detail specific. Thus, men will be facing "Rommel" months after he died, they are almost always attacked by an "88" and the tanks they fight are often "Tigers".

That is why both 21st and 11th could make sense. Notice how close the numbers are. So, my next question is, how well were they equipment when the firmed up in the Moselle and faced the 3rd Army?

[Nick Carter]

This has been one of my "to do" scenarios since getting CM. The book "Hit Hard" by David J. Williams, the commander of the 761st tank batt. is an enjoyable look into racial politics of the 1940's, black history, and the operations of a tank battalion. Several things:

The need for black (african-american) troop mods, including one driver wearing a top hat (yes I know it's not possible, but it would be cool), and one large aid to Capt. Williams named "Big Tit".

The book is in the "Bantam War Books" series.

[Slapdragon]

Thanks Nick, I don't have that book. I do, however, have the topos for the entire Sielle area 761 fought in. If you want to collaborate we can split the scenarios or you could do a second set at the Siegfried Line.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Couold it be that the German unit was either the 11th Panzer Division which had made it's way through the Montelimar gap to the Moselle area during the retreat of the 19th Army, or one of the two independent Panzer Brigades 106 and 112 IIRC? It could also have been the 21st, which was fighting in that area in October, according to Steidler 'Lost Batallions'.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not easy to track as the data has gaps but below is what I could find & not sure on relations if any, to the scenerio design dates/locations.

The 111th Pz.Brig was deployed with the 116th Pz Div's 1/16th Pz Regt to Lorraine on 16.09.44. On 25.09.44 the 111th was absorbed by the 15th Pz Gren Div. The 21st Pz. Div. was reforming in Lorraine in Sept useing the 112th Pz. Brig. The 15th Pz Gren Div was involved all over the area in Sept - Oct as was the 113th Pz.Brigade.

Regards, John Waters

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Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!

[Guest Germanboy]

For further inquiries of this sort (disposition of German armoured units), I highly recommend www.panzerdiesel.com . The guy has a number of charts graphically depicting where the units were at what time. Very good, provided the info is accurate, which I have very little means to check. It corroborates that the 21st Division was built from the 112th independent Panzerbrigade and that the 12th Division never left Russia (until they had to, of course). I guess that in your source they just switched the numbers.

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Andreas

[Slapdragon]

Thank your Germanboy, doctoral types need to stick together.

[Jarmo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slapdragon:

761 was ambushed by an 88 battery, destroying 6 tanks in short order. The tank crews, many wounded or deafened, rallied and charged the battery on foot giving the rest of the unit time to withdraw). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's gamey!!!

[Slapdragon]

Sure it is gamey! They did it in real life though. Imagine a battery of 88 guns blowing sunlight through your tanks, your infantry withdraws, and it looks like the whole company is doomed. So, this one Sergeant starts kicking tankers in the butt, they grab subguns, and they charge the 88s, knocking several out and diverting attention from the A3s, given them time to back pedal out and call in artillery. The battle was Morville-Les-Vic.

[This message has been edited by Slapdragon (edited 09-06-2000).]

[Fernando]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

The 111th Pz.Brig was deployed with the 116th Pz Div's 1/16th Pz Regt to Lorraine on 16.09.44. On 25.09.44 the 111th was absorbed by the 15th Pz Gren Div. The 21st Pz. Div. was reforming in Lorraine in Sept useing the 112th Pz. Brig. The 15th Pz Gren Div was involved all over the area in Sept - Oct as was the 113th Pz.Brigade.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the armored strengh of those Panzer Brigades in Sep. 44 (Jentz, T.L., “Panzer Truppen”):

Panzer-Brigade 111:

Pz.Abt.2111: 10 StuG, 45 PzKpfwIV, 4 FlakpzIV(37mm) and 4 FlakpzIV(20mm)

I./Pz.Rgt.16: 45 Panthers

Panzer-Brigade 112:

Pz.Abt.2112: 10 StuG, 46 PzKpfwIV, 4 FlakpzIV(37mm)

I./Pz.Rgt.29: 45 Panthers and 4 FlakpzIV(37mm)

Panzer-Brigade 113:

Pz.Abt.2113: 10 StuG, 45 PzKpfwIV, 4 FlakpzIV(37mm) and 4 FlakpzIV(20mm)

I./Pz.Rgt.130: 45 Panthers

The 15.Panzer-Grenadier-Division had 36 PzKpf IV (Pz.Abt. 103) in Aug. 44

I guess I./Pz.Rgt.16 was equiped with Panthers (its II./Pz.Rgt.16 was equiped with PzKpfw IV)

[Dixie Diner Six]

I did an internet search looking for pictures of the 761st Bn, but turned up only two showing armored vehicles. One dated August '44 showed a Stuart. The other was so miniscule the type of tank couldn't even be made out.

I read "Hit Hard" a very long time ago - over twenty years. I can't recall what it had to say about their equipment. I do recall one of those patent Bantam action paintings of an Easy Eight on the cover.

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Let us pass over the river and rest under the shade of the trees

[Slapdragon]

They had to of had 76 Shermans and maybe even E8s. Three hours ago I found a photo in an African-American photo archive of a tank crossing what looks like the Seille River dated November 1944 and the lead tank has a black tank commander in it. The Tank is a 76mm armed 76(W). Then I picked up a book written on oral histories that I do not have access to by Joe Wilson from interlibrary loan. One photograph is interesting in the extreme, since it shows 4 knocked out Panther tanks, and behind them is the 761 Tank which got them, an E8 (The E8 killed the 4 Panthers after the Panthers killed the lead A3, then was itself killed by a 5th Panther). The ID on the photo is firm: 761 Tank casualties from November 1944.

What is likely is that the oral history represents the impression that the 76mm M4s were hard to come by and tended to be horded by the "named" divisions, EXCEPT Patton was well known for demanding and getting the most of the best tanks and equipment (although he in fact opposed the 76mm because he did not want his tanks fighting other tanks). The 3rd Army, which originally got 761, may have assured a supply of the better tanks, that then dried up when they went to the Ninth Army.

At least it puts some things in perspective, the 761st was known for its ability to come out on top against Panthers (they hated the Tiger IIs more) but they had at least some 76mm armed tanks, and in fact lost one in the second week of November.

[Slapdragon]

Mucho gusto Fernando! Esto me ayuda hacia fuera mucho. Apresadumbrado sobre mi español pobre. Mi esposa hable portugeuse y he perdido mi español de la niñez. And I have no idea how to say "order of battle" (perhaps orden de la batalla?) but your order of battle is a great help.

Steve Jackson

[Dixie Diner Six]

That would fit. The 761st went into action in early November and stayed there for 183 consecutive days. While searching the internet for photos I was surprised to come across a piece indicating the legendary Jackie Robinson was in this outfit at one time.

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Let us pass over the river and rest under the shade of the trees

[Slapdragon]

Yes, Jackie Robinson was a member of the unit. As a officer and an incredible athlete he was one of their best, but he never made it over seas. While travelling through Alabama in the US several members of the unit went into a diner, which refused to serve them. As they were leaving, a group of German POWs headed for a POW camp in Louisiana came in the the tankers noticed that not only did the owner serve the Germans, but he gave them free desert. Many of the soldier became mad, and the account was eventually published in Stars and Stripes

A couple of weeks later, Robinson entered a bus and sat down in the front. The bus driver told him to get off, go around to the back, and sit at the rear. Jackie said hell with that, he was a soldier in the US Army and soldiers in the US Army did not ride in the back of the bus for anyone. An enlisted MP came and told him, using racial epithets, to get on the back. Jackie said no way, so the MPs drug him back to base. He was court martialled for talking disrespectfully to an MP and missed shipping out with 761. He was cleared of the charges later but by that time it was to late for him to make it to Europe, and troubles with the Chicago mutiny made the Army wary of sending "trouble makers" to Europe.

Many of the people in 761, just like their WWI counterparts, were fighting to prove something to white America, and they did. The actions of 761, of the 99th Pursuit, and of the integrated units that rose in 1945 as a result of Bulge casualties led to the 1948 integration of the United States military.

Something else interesting about those 183 days in constant contact with the enemy. The Army never did figure out how to provide replacements for casualties for 761, so they had to fight those 183 days with only the people they started with and a few people "picked up" along the way.

[Aacooper]

According to "Panzer Battles", the 26th ID and the rest of the XII Corps attacked on November 8th against the 48th and 559th Divisions, and parts of the 361st. The 11th Panzer division was behind the lines, and it seems the 26th ID ran up against the 11th Panzer, but "Panzer Battles" doesn't specifically mention anything about that.

[Slapdragon]

I should also post that the Morville battle where 761 troopers from destroyed tanks charged a battery of 88s on foot is more likely an exception rather than the rule. I think most tankers who lost their vehicles withdrew if they could rather than become infantry. Everthing I am reading says that the 761 was an unusual unit in many ways, from its acceptance of "unusual" characters to its absolute intolerence to certain behavior (an almost apocryphal story has the unit "executing" some of its own men rather than turning them over to 3rd Army to be tried for crimes). As an example of the opposite is the 712th Tank Battalion at hill 122 which faced danger bravely but folded in the towel when their tanks were blown up in the bocage (mostly from tactical mishandling).

I think it would be very rare to have 30 tankers charge the enemy dismounted.

[Slapdragon]

Thanks Aacooper!. It does sound like several different units engaged 761 / 26ID since 761 faced Panthers at Chateau-Salin and Guebling but faced leg based antitank units supported by Infantry at Morville-les-Vic and Stugs at Vic-sur-Seille. Of course the german leg units could of has Panthers attached, but more likely it sounds in the histories as if this "12th Panzer" was actually the 11th (probably a transcribing type which I have made in my own oral histories).

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fernando:

I guess I./Pz.Rgt.16 was equiped with Panthers (its II./Pz.Rgt.16 was equiped with PzKpfw IV)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes the 1/16th was equipped with PzKpfw V's.

Regards, John Waters

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Make way evil, I'm armed to the teeth and packing a hamster!