Ammunition/HMG/crews

[coe]

Reading how the gunfire factors are entered according to range (like close range you

can use submachine guns and grenades), how

does CM account for that you could

theoretically run out of long range ammo (

rifles), but still have your submachineguns

and grenades unused. Certain munitions

are not interchangeable. Thus can your

ammunition state change depending on target?

Also, might it be possible to have HMG as a

portable weapon like in Squad leader. It

might be quite unlikely that the HMG squad

is defenseless without the HMG as those who

carry ammo for it also have weapons. It might be interesting because it would make sense in a panic situation to drop the HMG and flee but still be able to recapture it

again later.

Will crews be able to reboard their vehicles

if they abandon it?

[Major Tom]

A lot of this has been looked at before, in GREAT detail.

1. It doesn't, ammo is ammo. Except for tanks (HE, AT, Smoke and MG ammo is tracked separately)

2. No, when an item is abandoned it is just too difficult and happened too rarely. HMG's cannot be fast weapons as they are bulky, especially their tripod. Without this bulk they would no longer be HMG's.

3. Not in the course of a battle. In an operation vehicles can be salvaged, if they aren't too destroyed.

[Phoenix]

Actually Major, I am pretty sure crews WILL reman abandoned vehicles in the full version. I swear I read that somewhere on here before.

[Moon]

Only inbetween the battles of an operation, never during the same scenario. See, when vehicles or guns get abandoned in CM, it's for a reason - either the crew is reduced to one or two men (and cannot really operate the equipment properly) or the gun/vehicle itself is damaged. It's not necessary destroyed, but enough collateral damage can render it combat-ineffective until somebody comes, recovers it and brings it behind the lines for repair (e.g. a tank with damaged main gun and immobilized would get abandoned).

[Phoenix]

Hmmm....I did a search on that topic and got conflicting info. But I'll take your word for it Moon, it makes sense. Thanks!

[coe]

So I'm curious, knowing that ammunition is

just ammunition, if one were to simulate

different types of ammo running out at

at different rates (i.e. if your unit is

doing long range gunfire all day it may

still have its SMG (which uses different

type of ammo) ready), what would be the

major issues in tracking this? would

it make lots more computation time also?.

If it were to have been simulated, it would

lead to some rather interesting surprises

especially when you get close to an enemy

who you think ran out of ammo.

[Scott C]

Well, at an absolute minimum it would require tracking several different ammo counts per squad. This would then necessitate a whole slew of changes in: TacAI, combat resolution routines, UI, and probably a whole host of other things I can't think of because I didn't code them. Also, once that is being tracked, there are many other things that 'should' be changed, such as how ammo is lost when a squad suffers casualties, etc. Again, there are probably more I haven't thought of. It also might well take a fair bit more processor time, since while the calculations would be simple, they would apply to every squad on the map, which adds up. Also, any addition to AI, such as deciding which weapons should fire and which shouldn't, can potentially take a LOT of computation, especially with fuzzy logic systems.

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Questions, comments, arguments, refutations, criticisms, and/or sea stories?

[Mark IV]

Remember the squad is a representation, only. If you have a 12-man US squad that has run low on .30-06 but has lots of .45 ACP for the Thompson, great- one guy has plenty of short range firepower, and 11 are fixing bayonets. The unit represented could still be fairly characterized as "Low" on ammo.

I think grenades may be tracked separately from ammo, as I see squads with Low ammo status chucking grenades freely in close assaults (charging out of the church into the little woods in CE springs to mind).

Actually, the more I think about it, this is really what "Low" is modeling. If you assault an infantry squad that is in Low condition, you'll find they have plenty of firepower for a short bloody fight. The infantryman can be relied upon to keep a few rounds for self-preservation. I don't think there is any "Out of Ammo" status for infantry.

[This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 03-06-2000).]

[Guest Big Time Software]

Small arms ammo is not tracked because, as others said above, this would be a nightmare. It also would not add too much realism either. So lots of problems for far too little benefit. You should note, however, that ammo consumption goes up the closer the enemy is. This simulates more weapons firing and firing more rapidly. It is not uncommon to see 5 or 10 units of ammo expended in one "burst" from a squad in close in fighting. There have been quite a number of threads on this, and the math really does check out just fine.

As for grenades, they are tracked seperately. There is no grenade count, but it roughly relates to the ammo level simply through circumstances. As with LOW ammo, you will never run out of grenades, but they will be thrown far less frequently the more times they are tossed. I think we reduced the number since the demo.

Steve