BEFORE OUR BELOVED CM

[SGTRock]

Hey guys,

I put this thread in to find out what wargames and or types of wargames are everybodys forte'

In the 'The end of CM ' Post, I mentioned that my fave was 'Squad Leader' by AH.

But computer-wise I can remember having a blast playing FIELD OF FIRE, and having a real blast making and playing battles on THE WARGAMERS CONSTRUCTION SET, on my good old commodore 64 All titles were by SSI an oldy but a goody to all us wargamers I'm sure.

Yep, as you can see that I'm more interested in the smalller fire fight combat rather than battalian combat. That's what turned a wargamer like myself onto CM!

I also dabbled in Risk, Axies and Allies, Diplomacy and my old favorite Junta.

Before SL I started out with HO Scale minitures and the PATTON and MCARTHERS Battles...can't remember who made those old board games though...

Well those are my beginnings...I still miss playing the Wargammers Construction Set and Feild of Fire..

This thread is wide open to let us here your beginings, I look forward to reading them.

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[Henri]

Well, I started way back in 1967, with Blitzkrieg and Gettysburg, which I believe were the first board wargames. My all-time favorite was The Russian Campaign. I then played innumerable ones, and since computer games started, I believe that I have not missed very many (if any), especially over the past few years when my game machine shifted from Mac to PC.

Offhand, my opinion of the best computer wargames are (in no particular order) East/West Front, Computer East Front, Pacific War, Tigers on the Prowl II, Mig Alley, Pz General series, Steel Panthers series, TacOps, SP2WW2, and I am probably forgetting a half-dozen others.

Henri

[SGTRock]

Hey, Henri.

Heard a lot about Eastern / Western Front also heard that the copy protection really made things slow and aggrivating..

Thanks for the heads up!

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[kingtiger]

Cut my teeth on Panzer General II, groaned and grunted through East Front (threw it away), currently hammering on west Front, but the Ugo/Igo is really boring. I think West front is great, but I find it too boring to play seriously. I enjoy Panzer General II because it is like chess, but I don't play it anymore. Peoples General was fun for a few weekends. Panzer Commander never really saw any real playing time. Close combat II and III continue to disappoint me. I enjoy Real time strategies, but I just can't get into CC2 or CC3 as much as I try. Summary for me:---> I would say West Front is the most realistic, but it is just too large and too time consuming. PG2 is the most enjoyable and was the most enjoyable for online play. After reading all the posts from CC guyz and the posts slamming PG-3D, I never thought I would be saying that I felt PG2 was the most fun. Sorry.

Richard Kalajian

[Pixman]

Of course Risk, Battleship and Stratego as a kid. Lots of heated drunken Risk games in college too!

First real wargame was Avalon Hill's Waterloo. I still like that game. SL is also my all time favorite. I never got into ASL because it came out just as all of my college buddies and I were graduating and scattering around the world. Also, it was expensive! Having recently visited Curt Schilling's site though, I must say that the ASL arsenal of games looks pretty impressive.

Other AH games: Third Reich (love it), War and Peace, Panzer Armee Afrika, D-Day, Fortress Europa, Knights of the Air, Conquistador, Up-Front/Banzai (may not be AH), Panzer Leader and some others I'm forgetting.

Computer Games: Civil War Generals 2 is my favorite to date (Steve produced it for Impressions/Sierra). They will be releasing CWG III early next year and I guarantee it will be excellent. Sid's Getty, Allied General, PGII, Perfect General, Jane's 688(i) Hunter/Killer, Red Baron II, Close Combat I. I demo'd a Steel Panthers game looking for a SL like experience. Was disappointed, hated the graphics and interface and decided to pass on it.

That's about it for me -- just under 20 years of real wargaming under my belt. Oh, and I have been playing CM in my mind now for several months!!!

Pixman

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Ron Meier]

Let's see back in the day...

The first true board war game I played was Submarine from Avalon Hill after that I got into Rise & Decline of Third Reich, Panzer Blitz and Star Fleet Battles. Never was able to play Risk or Monopoly after playing Third Reich.

Computer Games: Got a real kick out of Computer Ambush on the C64. Loved the HPS stuff and TacOps. Gettysburg is another winner in my list.

[chaos]

Panzer Blitz, 3rd Reich, and SL were all fixtures in my early years. My relatives couldn't understand why I was always toting around boxes filled with little pieces of cardboard. I played many hours solitaire, but was lucky enough to have a few good friends willing to invest the time and effort for weekend wargame marathons.

Computer-wise, I've really enjoyed Eastfront/Westfront and TOAW1 (notwithstanding it's many problems).

I've been following the CM board for a few weeks now, and I must say, if the game is half as good as it looks ,it's going to be fantastic!

Chaos

[Rex]

Played Stratego, Risk, and chess as a kid. Began serious gaming in junior high with a game called 'Battle for Germany' (I think it was called), Tobruk, and a host of other Avalon Hill and SSI games.

We'd ride our bikes down to campus every week and pick up a new game, play it like Hell for a week, and then move on to something new. By the time we graduated high school, we probably had 30 or forty different games. Anyone remember Sorceror, Acquire, or Outreach? Not great games, but definitely some great memories for me.

Of course, Squad Leader was my favorite, and I can honestly say I've been waiting for something like CM for the better part of two decades.

[SGTRock]

Rex:

Yeah! Tobruk! I had that, forgot all about it..it was the first one I owned, before SL came out. If you ever played Tobruk, you'd see how AH took lots from Tobruk to make SL.

Pixman:

Never got into ASL either, to busy expanding and trying to learn and master all the rules for SL! Whew... Member all those modifiers!, Man..hehehe

Can't wait to see what the manuals gonna look like for CM.. I wonder if it's 2, or 300 pages...

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[scoop88]

First cut my teeth on Afrika Korps in 1964 with my best friend who lived across the street. (I was 11 at the time.) We used to eagerly await each new AH release . . . Battle of the Bulge, Midway, Guadalcanal, Anzio, and 1914 (anybody remember that one?) Russian Campaign and Fortress Europa remain my favorite board games. None of the computer games ever lived up to the enjoyment I got from those old AH games until CC came along. Also like CC2, but not as well. Never got CC3 because they ignored Macs, and from what I've read on this board I'm glad I didn't buy it. CM, however, promises to be my new favorite.

[risc]

The best wargames I have ever played so far and can't live without :

The Ardennes Offensive (SSG)

Close Combat 1 (Atomic)

Tigers on the Prowl 2 (HPS)

Panthers i nthe Shadows (HPS)

101st Airborne in Normandy (Sharpnel Games)

These are all PC games...I used to have ATARI 800XL, STE but never came across any wargames at that time...

Peter

[Kevin Peltz]

Board games:

Campaign for North Africa

Atlantic Wall

Highway to the Reich

Patrol

Ambush!

Firefight

Panzer Leader

Tobruk

Terrible Swift Sword

Wellington's Victory

PC Games

All of the Talonsoft Battleground Series

TacOps

Panthers in the Shadows

Tigers on the Prowl 1 and 2

Sid Meier's Gettysburg

Alpha Centauri

Chaos Gate

Final Liberation

Harpoon 2

Harpoon 97

[PaulieG]

My brother and I played many AH games when we were young. I remember playing Gettysburg (the first one, '64 I think), Midway, Battle of the Bulge, 1776, Chancellorsville, Wooden Ships and Iron Men. Also I've played Risk, Baseball Strategy,

I really liked the idea of Squad Leader, my brother didn't. The main thing I keep thinking whenever I would get out SL is, this would be great if it was computerized so that calculating all this stuff is more managable.

On computer, some of the ones I've liked best are FIFA '99, Caesar 2, and TOAW 1. Sometimes I just open the TOAW editor and make maps. It's not game playing, but it is enjoyable escapism.

[Strider]

Started boardgames in 1974. 1st one was Luffwaffe(sp), 2nd Third Reich, 3rd Squad Leader, than many, many more after that Tobruk was my favorite. Also, Red Star / White Star for a 'modern' day wargame. The Ambush series was pretty good for soltire.

Computer wargames : Perfect General, Global Conquest, V for Victory - Utah Beach, CC1 and CC2, Most of SSI's 'General' series, Steel Panthers I & II, TacOPs, and a number of others I can't remember

[This message has been edited by Strider (edited 09-24-99).]

[Mike Oberly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Lots of heated drunken Risk games in college

too!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Pix!Same here-the kind of games that usually exploded in a near fist fight rather than actually being played out to the end.

As far as the original question,probably the same as most-first game I learned was my dad's copy of Panzerblitz.It was rough going,as I was about 7 at the time,just after it came out.The first game I actually owned myself was AH's 'Luftwaffe',and I bought most of AH's and several of SPI's games over the following 15 years or so.My favorites are probably 'Anzio'(after several years of Tom Oleson improvements),and 'The Longest Day.

Mike

[Guest KwazyDog]

Ron, I didnt think anyone would remember computer ambush, that was a fun little game for its day Hehe, I dont think it would look too impressive these days though.

I remember another game years ago on the C64 called Panzer Strike, from Grisby I believe. Its units were at about the same details as in Steve Panthers (armour fronts/sides/back rated individually, gun rated, mgs, etc), but it also actually had simultaneous turn resolution ! It was a really fun game and for its day about as realistic as you could hope back then.

[Guest Mikeman]

I bought my first wargame, Blitzkrieg by AH, when I was 10. I had know idea what I was buying. My dad said the game was too hard for me when he saw it, but I worked hard at it and eventually learned how to play. By the time I was 15 I owned 6-8 titles by AH.

I liked Panzer Leader the most, but there was another good one called Kriegspiel that didn't use dice. Anyone remember that one?

I too had 1914 but I thought it was too boring. Richtofen's War was a fun one. My dad really liked Afrika Corps so we often had that one set up on mom's dining room table. I remember buying Squad Leader, but I

joined the Army a few months later and my mom

sold it at a garage sale so I never did really get a handle on that one.

[Guest John Pender]

This thread jogged my memory and I remembered the AH game titled U-Boat. I bought it at an antique store about a year ago. I got it for $8.00 and it is in VG condition for a 1959 issue game. It has an advertising panphlet that list the game prices (boy have times changed) Gettysburg, Tactics-II, U-Boat and one called Dispatcher $4.95 ea. I broke it out and managed to teach my 7yr old son the basics. By tomorrow we should be able to play the game using all the rules. Teach em young. I dont play AH games much now days but it's a shame there gone :-(

Anyone ever play AH Airforce series? Its the board game equivalent to over the Reich and Achtung Spitfire with a Pacific module Dauntless. Ah the memories!!!!

Yes to Wooden Ships and Iron Men, board and PC versions.

[Pixman]

Mike O, you know what I am talking about!!! I still remember freshman year. My roommate Jim and another good friend Mike (sophomore year roomie) actually scattered the whole board with probably 600 armies on it. They ended up on the floor in a death struggle!! All because Mike tried to advance 3 armies from Greenland to Iceland at the wrong point in his turn, lol. Drinking heavily (among other things) and trying to strictly enforce rules do not mix!

Man did we have a blast. We used to call the large pieces that represented 10 armies "babymakers". It sucked though when a guy had 50 armies on Siam and another had 45 on Indonesia. The dice rolling was interminable. In those cases, we would make the early rolls worth 5 armies until the forces got whittled down or the attacker quit.

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The enchanter may confuse the outcome, but the effort remains sublime.

[Guest scarr]

Good thread idea! I started on board games, like most, including Blitzkrieg, Battle of the Bulge, France 1940 (one of my favorites), 1914, etc. all Avalon Hill games initially. I then got a subscription to Strategy & Tactics, and got a new game with each issue! The magazine was neat, and some of the games were actually pretty good, including a theatre wide game of the war in the Pacific called USN.

I also played SL, but rarely could round up opponents, so the coming of the computer games were a godsend. I started on the original V 4 Victory series by Atomic/360. I really enjoyed those because of their similarity to board games. I also have the World at War series (Op Crusader, D Day, Stalingrad).

About the same time I found the World at War series, I found out about BigTimeSoftware and picked up a copy of FC2, which I think is a terrific game, then OTR and AS.

And, I can't leave out perhaps the game that has provided me with the most combat sim fun up until now -- TacOps. Terrific game. Thanks Major.

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Steve C.

[Mike D]

Gee, don't know if I can remember back that far.

Informal wargame training,

The early years of mass destruction started around age 3-4, and just got worse from there with each passing year

Building forts, etc. out of legos, lincoln logs and the like and manning them with toy soldiers and then going on the attack w/ anything and everything imagineable including: rubber bands (still remember having one of these snap back in my face while I was aiming and hit me in the eye), thrown artilley consisting of small lincoln logs and/or legos at them, etc.

Buiding various ships out of legos and then destroying them by dropping a heavy ended butter knife on them while standing above on a chair and/or sliding the knife across the carpet at the side of the ship in order to torpedo it. Great fun if you've never tried it.

Later graduated to taking these concepts outside in the sand-box and / or dirt mounds in the backyard. This is where the heavy artillery of dirt clods and rocks came into play along w/ explosives such as black-cat firecrackers and the like. Melting toy soldiers w/ a magifying glass, etc. Including the destruction of many a plastic model ship, airplane, tank, etc., via the firecrackers, magnifying glass, and even just plain setting them on fire w/ a lighter.

The pinacle of all this non-board wargaming experience started at about the age of 17-18 when I and a couple of friends in high school decided to just go out and fight our own war (drinking beer at that point had already lost most of it's novelty so we had to come up w/ something "fun" to do). We each went and bought ourselves a single pump cheapy BB gun and got a hold of some safety glasses / goggles. Out where I lived there was a lot of open area that hadn't yet been developed so there was no lack of places to go to "play". Most of the games were a capture the flag type of affair w/ two teams each trying to capture the opposing teams flag and then return w/ it to their base. Made for many a nasty fire fight including friendly fire losses. The innaugural "game" was held in daylight w/ only 4 of us and I can still remember it vividly. It was tough since it was very difficult to advance without being seen. After that we switched almost exclusively to playing at night which was way cooler and more challenging. We would all put on dark cloths and camouflage stuff to blend into the night scene. I think the largest group that we ever got together was about 6-7 people per side. It was one heck of a night. Things I learned that I'll never forget: fighting at night is a difficult and confusing business although it is infinitely easier to infiltrate a position this way vs. in daylight, getting hit in the head w/ a BB hurts, coming under fire and hitting the dirt and hearing the BB's flying just over your head tearing through the high grass, reeds, leaves and the like, rolling down a hill after coming under fire and coming across a cactus in the back of the leg (ouch!). This went on for some time w/ our battles being fought on various and sundry fields of glory, the employment of bottle rockets launched through "bazooka" pipes, and so on. Finally my best friends mom caught on to what we were up to and he and his brother were banished from playing any further and that as they say was that.

Offcial board gaming history:

Started in boardgames at age of 12:

(all are now in boxes somewhere in the basement)

Midway

Afrika Korps

Third Reich

SL series all way through Anvil of Victory

AH card game based on SL (title?)

AH Carrier(s) (at?) War

AH Victory in the Pacific

Hells Highway

AH Starship Troopers

AH game based on Napoleonic Era (title?)

AH Panzer Leader

AH Tactics

AH game based on Amer. Rev. War (title?)

AH Wooden Ships and Iron Men

AH Battle of the Bulge game

A non AH game based on Vietnam Conflict

Probably several others I'm not remembering

Computer:

Over the Reich (my first and only BTS game)

THAT IS UNTIL CM comes OUT

Harpoon II

Across the Rhine

Aces over Europe

Close Combat I, II, and III

East Front (sucked)

Steel Panthers (orignal WWII edition)

Napoleon in Russia BattleGround 6

Soldiers at War

Operational Art of War Vol.I

V for Victory Market Garden

probably several other older titles I can't remember as well

After CM comes out and I sink my teeth into it I imagine all of the above will pale in comparison though. Well, except maybe for the BB gun wars which were some of the most fun I've ever had stupid though they were.

Mike D

aka Mikester

[This message has been edited by Mike D (edited 09-24-99).]

[Guest John Pender]

Mike D, The SL card game: Up Front.

Tks for a very entertaining post. Ah good old BB gun wars.

Vividly remember anchoring a model of the Arizona out from the cottage on the cape during a storm, she survived the storm but was no match for the BB guns

[Ron Meier]

KrazyDog,

I remember reading the designer notes for Computer Ambush... Towards the end he is lamenting about what he really wanted to do and the text kept getting smaller... I still remember getting my first knife kill with my neighbor... Ah the good old days when a knife would do the job...

[SGTRock]

Mike D, the AH Card Game your thinking of is it ' Up Front '?

I always wanted that game, didn't have the bucks to get though at the time, and it also came out just after I got my C64, so I had already started CWG.

Buiding various ships out of legos and then destroying them by dropping a heavy ended butter knife on them while standing above on a chair and/or sliding the knife across the carpet at the side of the ship in order to torpedo it. Great fun if you've never tried it.

Yep, used to do this with lego, lincolns and wooden blocks, but used an alternative bomb, usually an 'D Battey' (they made great bombs!) Even had a cool way for deciding casualties if the man was face up he was wounded, face down KIA...I remember some slaughterfests, poor guys.

I use to also use my parents book shelf to mound mountain assaults on...Man, I miss being a kid...First toy I'll boy my 5 year old a package of plastic armymen!

Kudos for your memories and comments guys I enjoy reading them, keep em coming!

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Sgt. Rock Says " War is Hell, but games are fun "

[Thomm]

As for the toy soldiers ...

Built a diorama from plaster once.

Soon got bored of it and thought of a way to dispose it !

That was when my Grand-Dad (he was flown out of Stalingrad with appendicitis, yes, you can call that "luck") suggested to make a nuclear explosion !

And there we went: With a critical mass of terpentine we blasted away that thing ! I still remember the ball of flames rising three meters in the air ! Should have taken a picture !

Also made for some great damage assessment !

Regards,

Thomm