Guest Captain Foobar Posted February 17, 2000 Share Posted February 17, 2000 OK, can anyone, who has the newest version of CM, tell me roughly how long a Tank, Assault Gun, or AT device holds its designated target in the current version. An example currently, my orders delay for a Stug was @ 10 seconds, and he forgot his target in 5. This sort of thing detracts terribly from issuing orders, and having the intent of your orders survive. Can anybody shed some light on this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Seimerst Posted February 17, 2000 Share Posted February 17, 2000 My understanding is that there can be several variables at work in the excellent AI that could cause that effect. One being that the unit spots a target that presents a greater or a more immediate threat than the one you designated. Others are the status of the unit, its level of training and experience, is a leader close by? etc. Fionn, Madmatt and others may have more insight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFCElvis Posted February 17, 2000 Share Posted February 17, 2000 Seimerst...in a way you are correct but my understanding is that the AI in the final version will follow you orders longer if it not in immediate danger. I believe Fooman knows this and wants more details in how much more it will follow orders before retargeting on its own (if I am giving the Foomeister too much credit here let me know). There are plenty of times I have had a Stug that I target with a 30%+ chance of hitting a Sherman, retarget an infantry squad that can't be NEARLY as much of a threat. And I am talking about good condition beginning of the game Stug here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted February 17, 2000 Share Posted February 17, 2000 Yep, more credit indeed. Was that the 'excuse' you are using for your 2 dead StuG's in our CE game Foo? All that smoke you layed down is really hampering you now, eh? [This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 02-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Posted February 17, 2000 Share Posted February 17, 2000 Although I think this has been addressed in the beta, I had an annoying experience involving this at the end of my battle in Reisberg. I was playing German, and my 88 was out of HE. There was a Sherman just out of LOS which I knew was about to start moving into range during this turn, so I targeted it even though it was out of LOS at the beginning of the turn. When the turn started, what does the 88 do? Sure enough, it spots a mortar crew off in the woods at about a 90 degree angle away from the Sherman and begins to turn to engage. Keep in mind it was out of HE shells and probably couldn't hurt the mortar crew, even if it wanted to. Of course, not more than 10 seconds after this, the Sherman moves into LOS and the 88 begins to SLOWLY rotate in the direction of the tank. Just as my gun finishes its traverse, BOOM!!! the Sherman turns it into scrap metal. If the dumkaph 88 had followed my directions, it would have had that Sherman in its sites the moment it crested that hill and would have brewed it up. I tell ya, the survivors of that crew were sent East real fast! ------------------ Not THE Charles from BTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eridani Posted February 17, 2000 Share Posted February 17, 2000 I think a big solution to this problem that I'm sure we've all had (especially with those *!#! stugs) will be the fact that in the full Beta Tanks (and guns I hope) will be able to set their own ambush points, so if you know an enemy tank is going to come around a corner, all you'll need to do is put and ambush marker at the corner and tell ur Gun/Tank/Other_Big_thing to target it. -EridanMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colin Posted February 17, 2000 Share Posted February 17, 2000 That's a good question Eridani... Can AT guns lay their own ambush points like tanks? Also on another topic can sharpshooters set their own ambush points? Instead of a sharpshooter blowing his cover and possibly bringing fire down on other troops near him can he do this? I've read that sharpshooters are very independant and theres not much point of keeping them near HQs because they shoot when they want. Could be useful for such an independant unit... ------------------ Visit my webpage! http://cm4mac.tripod.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 18, 2000 Share Posted February 18, 2000 1. AT guns can lay their own ambush points. 2. The AI is fuzzy. Generally though it will maintain target lock for up to 5 seconds without LOS. However the INSTANT it spots a more threatening target it'll change targets. It works much better than it did in the beta demo (which I thought was already very good) now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted February 18, 2000 Share Posted February 18, 2000 Thanks for your replys, guys. Major Tom: You didnt hear me crying to you ,did ya? I will take my licks just like anyone else. (I just about blew a gasket as I watched my orders get butchered on turn 8 though) But to redirect my question The time amount that you maintain "target lock" without that unit's LOS to target, and assuming no other targets are in view. (reread that last part, this is the only situation that I am in question about) If you issue a "target order" to said unit, and he is not in motion yet, there is the appropriate "orders delay". This Orders Delay cuts into your "target lock" time, if I understand correctly. In fact, I believe that the Orders Delay can EXCEED your target lock. This specific situation makes it very difficult to impliment solvent orders, ironically at the moment when decisive action is the most critical. Please tell me anything you guys know on this SPECIFIC situation, and yes I know that you cannot aim at an enemy that you can't see hehe. Thanks again for all of your input. The tactic that I have been fighting with, in the above questions, is to "crest the hill" towards an opponent that has not yet seen your AFV, with any of his units. I want to approach into a hull-down position. Do you guys try this? Do you flounder as helplessly as I have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 18, 2000 Share Posted February 18, 2000 Order delay does NOT apply to targetting orders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted February 18, 2000 Share Posted February 18, 2000 If you have a Stug you want to target a juicy Sherman, then have the Stug move up and then rotate directly at the offending tank at the end of its move. This can help break off any ancillary targeting the turretless Stug did on its way up. Unfortunately, this doesn't always work too well with turreted tanks. And be aware that this doesn't always help when you choose 'Hunt' instead of 'Move' or 'Fast' since in Hunt mode the tank may stop in the middle of its move when it acquires a target; often oblivious to other dangers around it. - Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 18, 2000 Share Posted February 18, 2000 Just as in real life it is the enemy one doesn't see who usually kills one. Tank combat is a bit like air combat that way. A LOT of kills in tank combat come from enemy tanks you've never seen until their round hits your tank. Remember we as "god" see things our individual tankers don't see so while WE might see that Sherman to their left the tank crew mightn't see it in-game cause it fails a spotting check or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quenaelin Posted February 18, 2000 Share Posted February 18, 2000 I don't personally like this god option in strategy games so I prefer realtime games. So could you or is it possible to implement that option for limited vision, where 1st person view of unit is only available viewpoint. That could be very realistic to use and play with this option enabled, so you could zoom and view around in one view point only. Quenaelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted February 18, 2000 Share Posted February 18, 2000 Select view 1 when you start the game. Use the PLUS and MINUS keys to cycle through units. NEVER use any other view to view the map and ONLY use the PLUS and MINUS keys to cycle through the units and you will achieve exactly what you want. It isn't hard-coded in but it is possible to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted February 19, 2000 Share Posted February 19, 2000 Of course, even playing by those rules does not eliminate your omni-present knowledge. You can't honestly forget what lies around the corner from one unit, while giving orders to men who can see around that corner. I can see the reasoning behind this approach, but I find it relatively simple to justify the "god view" orchestration of your force. I target an enemy before I crest the hill, because my CO told me to "go over that hill and take out that armor." We are simulating not only individual squad decision making, but overall command decisions too, right? Fionn, If you are still reading, I would love to see an article going into depth on this subject, to answer definitively, what role(s) we are trying to simulate with CM. Perhaps BTS could chime in on the subject. If this line of questioning has been dealt with, (and you are tired of hearing it) could you tell me where to find the answers? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Charles Posted February 19, 2000 Share Posted February 19, 2000 In my case involving the 88 and the Sherman, the Sherman was out of LOS of my gun. However, my 88 was totally out of HE and therefore only useful against AFV's. Under those conditions, the 88 has NO business engaging soft targets and should be much more worried about any armor it can engage. Although I understand you can't target what you can't see, surely the crew of the 88 could hear the Sherman and have a GENERAL idea of where it might be and would be preparing to shoot it as soon as it gained LOS. My question is, once a gun or AFV runs out of HE, shouldn't the AI realize NOT to target soft targets anymore without specific orders to do so? After all, its main function is AT, and if it only has AP rounds left it should be scanning for armor, not pip-squeek foot soldiers 100+ meters away in the woods. ------------------ Not THE Charles from BTS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted February 19, 2000 Share Posted February 19, 2000 I know that AFV's will be able to set their own "ambush" markers, and if gun emplacements could set an ambush marker, than that could help towards what you are talking about, charles Now we just need to get confirmation on that question. I will try a search. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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