FABIO Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 Is it just me, or does it seem like German armor dies much too easily in this game? I'm no expert on armor aspects, but I'm pretty sure that for the majority of the war, almost no allied anti-tank weapon could penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger or Panther at anything less then extreme close range. Yet it's common place for me to lose these tanks to frontal hits (from Shermans no less!). A good example of this is the Whitman Tiger scenario, where my Tigers die to the first or second shot to the front at ranges of 650+ meters. The British do get those Firefly tanks in that scenario, but still are they really THAT good? The scenario takes place a week or two after D-Day so I'm pretty sure they can't have Tungsten by then. I've also run into these problems on other scenarios with my Panzer IV's seeming to be outclassed by Shermans in medium range standoffs. My P IV brews up after only the first hit while the Sherman can take a poounding. I find myself having to use American tactics of using 2 tanks to try and encircle a sherman, losing 1 or both in the process, all in trying to kill a lowly Sherman. Granted the PIV wasn't the most powerful tank in the war, but I still think it was better than those "Zippo" Shermans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 Welcome to reality. CM more accurately represents armored combat in WWII than any other wargame I have ever seen. If anything they even understate the penetration of the US 76mm and possibly other guns too. It comes as a shock to most folks that the German tanks get killed easily. The catch is that the 76mm armed versions were relatively rare and the 75mm is pretty much useless. The Pz IV used to be my favorite underdog tank but it is really pathetic. The "bud Light" armor on the turret front is allergic to anything bigger than a .50 cal. Then there is the blind luck factor. I've lost Jagdpanthers on the first shot to some stupid allied vehicle because of a lower hull hit. CM is not very considerate of peoples' notions of german tank invulnerability. And yes, Fireflies rock. If you want to feel invulnerable use a King Tiger and hope like hell it doesn't get a gun hit on turn 1, get stuck somewhere, get bombed by a jabo, or get taken out by a M24 Chaffee "Trollslayer" zipping around its flank. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest machineman Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 PZIV to Sherman 76 should be about even in armour and gun, AFAIK, who wins is up to skill and luck. But the 17 pounder on the Firefly is about the same as the Panthers long 75 or the 88mm on the Tiger I. It is a very good gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
:USERNAME: Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 See the recent 88mm thread. Also, the PzIV may be incorrectly modeled in the game as far as size. I am STILL waiting patiently for some response from CHARLES regarding this. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snake Eyes Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC: CM is not very considerate of peoples' notions of german tank invulnerability... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Amen, brother! In a recent PBEM game my KT was taken out with a front hull hit by a Hellcat at 500+m. It's gotta be a bug! I know it's a bug!! My life is ruined!!! ARGHHH!!!! ------------------ It is easy to be brave from a safe distance. -Aesop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ckoharik Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC: If you want to feel invulnerable use a King Tiger and hope like hell it doesn't get a gun hit on turn 1, get stuck somewhere, get bombed by a jabo, or get taken out by a M24 Chaffee "Trollslayer" zipping around its flank.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Been there, done that. Played the Elsdorf (revised) scenario. One of my Chaffes managed to take out a PVIV, Tiger I, *and* King Tiger all by itself. Give those guys a medal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ckoharik: One of my Chaffes managed to take out a PVIV, Tiger I, *and* King Tiger all by itself. Give those guys a medal!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No medal for killing Tiger I. With very slow turret speed it usually behaves like some pathetic idiot. Just rotates it's gun there... and here... and back... never getting the job done. And then the Chaffee finishes it from close range. What an unbelievable anticlimax. GRRRR! I just lost bunch of Tigers in 'eye of the tiger'-scenario to my PBEM-opponent. In low visibility conditions my Tigers performed really horribly. They seemed to act like dumb sacrificial lambs. Well I think the scenario's designer had that in mind when he made the setup. Anyway from now on I won't be happy to see any Tiger Is in my arsenal. Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMC Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Been there, done that. Played the Elsdorf (revised) scenario. One of my Chaffes managed to take out a PVIV, Tiger I, *and* King Tiger all by itself. Give those guys a medal!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> We could have a trend. My chaffee didn't get the Pz IV in elsdorf but he did get a tiger (on the move) and on the last turn the KT. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CavScout Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FABIO: Is it just me, or does it seem like German armor dies much too easily in this game? I'm no expert on armor aspects, but I'm pretty sure that for the majority of the war, almost no allied anti-tank weapon could penetrate the frontal armor of a Tiger or Panther at anything less then extreme close range. Yet it's common place for me to lose these tanks to frontal hits (from Shermans no less!). A good example of this is the Whitman Tiger scenario, where my Tigers die to the first or second shot to the front at ranges of 650+ meters. The British do get those Firefly tanks in that scenario, but still are they really THAT good? The scenario takes place a week or two after D-Day so I'm pretty sure they can't have Tungsten by then. I've also run into these problems on other scenarios with my Panzer IV's seeming to be outclassed by Shermans in medium range standoffs. My P IV brews up after only the first hit while the Sherman can take a poounding. I find myself having to use American tactics of using 2 tanks to try and encircle a sherman, losing 1 or both in the process, all in trying to kill a lowly Sherman. Granted the PIV wasn't the most powerful tank in the war, but I still think it was better than those "Zippo" Shermans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think you have been rudely given a taste of reality. It is to often that we let propaganda make reality instead of reality itself. I remember playing my early war games, before I got into the historical side, thinking the German armor was the best thing since sliced bread! Should have seen my horror when I was playing German IIIs and IVs in Russia! "How can this be! My tankers aren't the best!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 Yes FABIO, Fireflys really were THAT good. Herr Wittman and four more of his Tiger force were killed by Fireflys of the Northants Yeomanry during a brief action in Operation Totalize. German Panzer/Anti-tank crews priority targeted Fireflys for good reason, and the Fireflys suffered much higher proportionate losses as a result. This is why British Troop commanders 'delegated' the Firefly command tanks to other members of the unit, preffering to remain in more innocent looking Shermans! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FABIO Posted October 12, 2000 Author Share Posted October 12, 2000 Yes in the historical battle they did take out Tigers, but the description said it was from side shots mostly. I don't expect German armor to be invincible, but I do think it's a bit odd that Shermans can take them on tank for tank (sometimes even better than that!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Lakowski Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 The reason why the germans are generally thought to be better tanks has several reasons. First; one of the concequences of being the 'runners up in WW-II' is that there armor got examined to death after wards and for decades the only data you could lay your hands on was data of German tanks. The unintended side effect is that most ever one knows of Tigers and Panthers etc. Two; for most of the war German armor was better than every one elses armor.Since most of the war was fought with out the aid of Allied HVAP ammo this was not felt until the end of the war and by the the nazis needed a miracle to save them anyways. Third; German war production fell behind needs from about 1941 on so no matter how good they were by the end of the war they were so badly out number the tactical battles were bound to go against them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Diceman Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 You also have to consider range. In open country German armor rules. At the closer ranges...well you've seen it for yourself. ------------------ Pair-O-Dice "Once a Diceman, Always a Diceman." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 12, 2000 Share Posted October 12, 2000 The Pz IV as modelled in CM is little better than an armored car. Which ironically is what takes out my Pz IVs the most: armored cars -john [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 10-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Just did a test yesterday. 4 PnzIVG vs. 4 M4A SHERMAN 75mm Range 750m 10 test; clear day; open ground; regular crews (kills=how many targets were eliminated) Battle results 1.) Panzer 1 kills / shermans 4 kills 2.) panzer 2 kills / shermans 4 kills 3.) panzer 4 kills / shermans 3 kills 4.) panzer 3 kills / shermans 4 kills 5.) panzer 4 kills / shermans 2 kills 6.) panzer 0 kills / shermans 4 kills 7.) panzer 3 kills / shermans 4 kills 8.) panzer 2 kills / shermans 4 kills 9.) panzer 1 kills / shermans 4 kills 10.) panzer 3 kills / shermans 4 kills HMMM...disturbing. This was a head on engagement. In fact only one of the battles lasted past the third turn. Turret speed had nothing to do with it. Also while I do not have numbers shells seemed alot more likely to bounce off of the shermans than the panzers. NOTE: June 1944 was the time period used. Any responses? ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest [This message has been edited by Priest (edited 10-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 yes, try it Pz IVs vs armored cars The pz IVg and the m4a3 sherman 75mm are about equal in testing. the pz IVg costs 122 points regular crew, the m4a3 costs 120 points regular crew. losses for both sides come out to fairly equal. [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 10-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blitzkrieg Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Priest: Just did a test yesterday. 4 PnzIVG vs. 4 M4A SHERMAN 75mm Range 750m 10 test; clear day; open ground; regular crews (kills=how many targets were eliminated) Battle results 1.) Panzer 1 kills / shermans 4 kills 2.) panzer 2 kills / shermans 4 kills 3.) panzer 4 kills / shermans 3 kills 4.) panzer 3 kills / shermans 4 kills 5.) panzer 4 kills / shermans 2 kills 6.) panzer 0 kills / shermans 4 kills 7.) panzer 3 kills / shermans 4 kills 8.) panzer 2 kills / shermans 4 kills 9.) panzer 1 kills / shermans 4 kills 10.) panzer 3 kills / shermans 4 kills HMMM...disturbing. This was a head on engagement. In fact only one of the battles lasted past the third turn. Turret speed had nothing to do with it. Also while I do not have numbers shells seemed alot more likely to bounce off of the shermans than the panzers. NOTE: June 1944 was the time period used. Any responses? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Just a question: Did you check to see if the shermans were loading tungsten? cuz that might be a reason...but what do i know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Lakowski Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 British Vs German Tank Battle predictions [Applied Operations Research,1988 Plenum 'Press ISBN0-306-42518-1],pp59. 11 x PzIV Vs 11 x Shermans & 3 x Cromwells results in 6 lost Pz & 5 lost Brit tanks, or about 1:1 kill ratio 53 x Panthers Vs 172 x Shermans results in 31 lost Panthers and 12 lost Shermans, or about 2.5:1 kill ratio. 67 x Tiger-1s Vs 148 x Shermans results in 27 lost Tigers Vs 22 lost Shermans, or about 1:1 kill ratio. 5 x Tigers & 14 x Panthers Vs 32 x Shermans & Cromwell results in 12 lost Pz Vs 11 lost British tanks, or about 1:1 kill ratio. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Just checked. First off it was a basic M4 not the M4a1. Also I just bought tons of M4's in a QB to check ammo loadouts and not one had Tungsten. Was it available for the 75mm in June 44? Hey tiger I will try it with armored cars now. ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest [This message has been edited by Priest (edited 10-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rex_Bellator Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Good idea for the test, and I for one am concerned by the results. With 2.3 kills on average to the PzIV's and 3.7 to the 75mm Shermie's anyone who was presented the figures would assume that the Shermie was a quantum leap in front. One thing I might say is that 10 battles is few enough for luck to have played its part (eg the 0 - 4 result) and influence the survey in a substantial way. It may be worth another session? Personally I would have expected about 1 to 1 parity but this clearly is not the case. Good work and plenty of scope for discussion on this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Tiger Just put 3 PnzIV against 3 Greyhounds. OK the Greyhounds never once won in the 10 battles but half the time they were able to get one kill with their 37mm. Also the battles never lasted past the 1st turn. The longest was 41 seconds. Rex I have planned to do another twentey tonight just to see. That will be thirty so it should be enough. While luck does play into it I do wish I would have recorded richocets because it was REALLY lopsided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 no no, use british daimlers....heh I had 2 pz IVs taken out by daimler armored cars (3) at range in a recent qb. Those 40mm daimlers are nasty. make that they're nasty "in ambush" I see armored cars now I go after em with a vengeance [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 10-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 okay here we go!!! ------------------ Sir are you sure you want to go to red alert...it would mean changing the bulb -Priest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Priest Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 Okay faster this time. Same setup with 4 panzerIV vs. 4 Dailmer AC Panzer/Dailmer 4/2 4/3 4/3 3/4 4/2 4/3 4/2 4/3 3/4 4/4 (thru this one out) 4/2 So there ya go. By the way if I read it correctly the Dailmer in June 44 had a 40mm. The fact that the Panzers won is good the fact that it cost them so much is bad. Also the Dailmers took a lot of wheel hits (expected). Also the panzers also had the most (expected) richocets. Out of the 44 panzers in the test 5 took serious gun hits. Just stuff I noticed. Dailmers took none. None of the 44 panzers was immobilized. Nothing lasted past turn 1 although the some turns made it to 55-57 sec. range. So? [This message has been edited by Priest (edited 10-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Blitzkrieg Posted October 13, 2000 Share Posted October 13, 2000 So, i'd say that the test results are good for the reliability of CM's historical acuracy... In fact i've noticed that most of the the subjects posted in this forum are aimed at trying to find somthing wrong w/CM's AI or historical acuracy...I would say that, for the most part, CM's reputation for these elements has proven strong. The continuous analisis of this game by its players has demonstrated how addicting this game really is and how much its users want to be involved with it as a whole, not only by phisically playing it, but by wanting to play a role in critique and improvments ...I my self have learned an overwhelming amount of information about WW2 strickly from this game and my facinations with the war have grown enormously srong since CM was shipped to my home a week ago...Bravo! Now about those German tanks.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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