What my father said about Combat Mission

[Guest Captain Manieri]

Since late November, I've been spreading the word about combat mission to my friends, listeners to my show, ect. I recently showed my father the Beta Demo. He was very impressed. Considering he doesn't know a lot about computers, he was still blown away. He says, "it's like commanding, real troops!"

Other than that my father also noted the quality of the game...with it just being a demo and with MORE stuff on the way. Bigger and better stuff! He said, "I'd wait to see the finished version of that." But when I first turned on the game, he said he thought that all wargames were made like this. I said, "No way!! This is landmark!" My dad said, "Oh?! Well, God bless 'em!"

I really think that the bastards over at Talonsoft will **** their pants once this game comes out. How much you want to bet they will conform? They will. This game will make every other game out there..OBSOLETE!

I also told my dad that the game will come with an editor. You can make your own battles. He said, "Really? Can you put tanks and things on there where you want?" And I said, "Yeah. Any kinda battle you want (from what I'm told) and you can totally customize it for yourself."

I don't know if any of you watch, "The Sopranos", but my dad has a great similarity to Anthony Soprano and Big Puss. (one of these big-cigar smoking, hard to impress, all business, Sicilan guys) So, that's why I thought it was neccesary to mention this. Combat Mission can impress anyone. As my dad was walking out of the room, with his back turned he non-chalantly said, "...that's some good ****..."

Later on that evening he asked me did I know when the game is gonna be released. I told him, "Christ, dad, I wish I knew. It's totally up in the air right now." Then he said, " Well, those guys, better get their F&@#ing **** together." ...suffice to say, he was kidding, of course.

[howardb]

Sounds like you got a good father Manieri

[Ash]

"Bastards at talonsoft" Yikes, hey they gave us TOAW and JA2 so there not all bad.

------------------

The names Ash, Housewares

[Spook]

To Ash: "I'LL SWALLOW YOUR SOUL!!!"

(You know how to respond, )

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook:

To Ash: "I'LL SWALLOW YOUR SOUL!!!"

(You know how to respond, )

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The German subtitle was - When you travel to the middle ages, don't forget the chainsaw.

Wenn Du ins Mittelalter gehst, vergiss die Kettensäge nicht.

------------------

Andreas

[PanzerShark]

Didn't he respond with:

Yo SHE-BITCH....less go?

brings back memories though

[Ash]

Oops, didn't mean to completely side track this entire thread just from posting something.

------------------

The names Ash, Housewares

[Spook]

BZZZZZZ!!!! Sorry, Panzershark, the correct answer is "Come get some." Nice try, though. Yep, that was a great movie for one-liners.

OK, back on track IF required......

Capt., in your above comments, don't you think that your last paragraph is a bit transparent in its "message"? Besides, the BTS members MIGHT have a very real target date for when they want to finish, instead of it being "up in the air." They sensibly choose not to disclose it.

Hey, the longer they choose to work on finalizing CM, the longer they choose to work without CM-based new revenues. Such discretion that is based on quality control is admirable from my viewpoint thus far.

[Lee]

Sirtech made Jagged Alliance II, not Talonsoft.

[PanzerLeader]

Manieri, thrashing Talonsoft like this is plain stupid. You cannot compare wargames of different scales.

I know many people who play TOAW a lot and CM beta demo too, both games are complementary.

Tactics is the art of fighting individual battles where the range of the different direct fire weapons comes into play.

The operational art is the art of combining battles so as to reach a strategic goal.

Military strategy is the art of combining operations along the entire front, to capture territory or eliminate enemy troops.

Now Manieri, please meditate on that...It won't do you anything bad...

[This message has been edited by PanzerLeader (edited 02-17-2000).]

[Allan]

Talonsoft has given us some good games. I just got Rising Sun to complete the campaign series. It is well worth the price. Now if I can just play it enough before CM is released

Allan

[Guest srare]

Are those games any good - Rising Sun and East or is it West Front? Are they more operational type games? I was considering purchasing one - which one do you reccomend?

[Guest Captain Manieri]

Bar none....West Front sux.

[Allan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by srare:

Are those games any good - Rising Sun and East or is it West Front? Are they more operational type games? I was considering purchasing one - which one do you reccomend?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like the campaign series. However, the dynamic campaigns in EF2 and WF are broken in my opinion. I don't know about RS yet. The OOB's and objectives get really out of whack the further you go in the campaign. For example, I decided to start a dynamic campaign commanding a regiment of U.S. armor on June 7, 1944. My forces consisted of mainly Grant light tanks, M8's with a few Shermans. As the campaigned progressed, I was not able to upgrade my force to Shermans even though I earned major victories, yet I was asked to face German Tigers and Panthers with increasing frequency. I was repeatedly asked to take objectives that were heavily defended by German heavy armor with a force that was essentially a recon regiment. I read somewhere that you could edit the campaign via a text file. I have not tried this yet. However, I fine the linked campaigns and scenarios to be pretty good since the OOB's are preset. I am just starting to play RS so the verdict is still out. As far as which one to get, choose the theater that interests you.

Allan

[PanzerLeader]

The Campaign Series lets you play much larger battles than in CM, the scale goes up to Corps level, but personally I find that the best scenarios are at regiment level. It is grand tactics: you cannot control every single squad or tank as in CM, instead one unit represents a platoon.

I find that lack of precision(they still use hexes and it is turn based...) is largely compensated by great flexibility. And the graphics are neater than in CM, too. Much more pleasing to the eye. Those games have given me hours, maybe entire days of enjoyment.

[Spook]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Manieri:

Bar none....West Front sux.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I was an earlier playtester for West Front (the Sealion add-on, to be specific). A lot of hours, scenario analyses, write-ups, etc., but hey, it was a great bunch of guys I tested with. I've had plenty of time to sort out what I though were the strengths of the Campaign Series system as well as its weaknesses. Thus I am compelled to ask if you could specify what "sux" in WF?

[Allan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Manieri:

Bar none....West Front sux.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, please give some details. I liked EF and WF. However, after playing Rising Sun for the last day or two, it may be my favorite of the series. I am just getting used to jungle warfare, bunker busting and night combat. Quite a change from the European theater of armored infantry and flanking tactics.

Allan

[dumbo]

I was a EF and WF hater till last week. I have never been able to get past the interface which i always regarded as clunky and the scale always seemed "just wrong" on the map.

However as I am interested in the Eastern theatre (Brits in burma mainly) I picked up Rising Sun and I am having a great time. For some reason the engine just clicked into place with infantry engagements and after wading through the manual I can now just about play the game.

The main weakness with the game is the dynamic campaign system which is far less flexible than the SP series. I really want to run an infantry battalion through burma from 42-45 but there is no way (I know of) you can do it. This is pretty daft when you consider all the game is doing is generating scenarios.

That said the game really is a blast. My plucky battalion of Indian troops is slugging its way through the jungle. The game is so atmospheric I cracked and went out looking for some good books on the Brits in the east, unfortunatley living in the states this was a feeble hope but I did pick up a second hand copy of William Manchesters "Goodbye Darkness" which is a great book.

Anyways pick up RS bro I can recommend it, unfortunately I cant recommend EF2 (the other one I own) as I tried to play a campaign as a russian infantry battalion and just got armor swamped constantly for about a year with bugger all way to repel them. Maybe I will give EF2 another try now I am so pumped with RS tho.

cheers

[Kat]

Originally posted by dumbo:

The game is so atmospheric I cracked and went out looking for some good books on the Brits in the east....

Quite a good account is George MacDonald Fraser's (of Flashman & McAuslan fame) 'Quartered Safe out Here'(I think). It's his autobiography of the time he spent as a private to junior officer in the Black Cat Division in Burma in '44 and '45. He missed Kohima and Imphal, but was there for the reconquest. It's well written and has some interesting passages on small unit jungle fighting.

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kat:

Quite a good account is George MacDonald Fraser's (of Flashman & McAuslan fame) 'Quartered Safe out Here'(I think).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have the title right. Your time (and money) is never wasted with G.M. Fraser. If you haven't read the Flashman series, your life is incomplete. He also has two other books that (IIRC) are about the CBI theater: "McAuslan in the Rough" and "The General Danced at Dawn".

Ethan

------------------

Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[LT CANADA]

West Front is my favorite game, its absolutly brilliant. The OOB's have correct battalion names and the gameplay is good. The AI may need some work in the campaigns but still is fun to play with. I think that Combat Mission is a great game and I know I will enjoy it, as will many. But I will not just put down my WF and RS, both of those I will continue to play, probably into next year. The great thing about CM is that I can finally play a realstic FRONT LINE simulation. Im sure it will beat the hell out of CC5.

Thanks

[CoolColJ]

I find the Graphics absolutely horrid in West Front, grainey beyond belief (sprite based look), and you need to run 1200x1028+ on a 19+inch monitor to get a decent view area. The interface is shocking, these guys might know how to do a wargame (some might question this), but doing a nice user interface, is definitely not their strong point

The system is also just plain gamey. You pretty much have choose which units to move first. Move the transports first to trigger oppurunity fire and do some recon

Becuase of the old school system, you have to control every single dang unit everyturn. The battles can take forever to resolve per turn, and forgetting about a unit is a real possiblity. Hey sure you can play larger battles Than CM, but boy I would die with cobwebs on me

For me, playing West front is like manual labour, CM is just so much cooler in comparison. CM rocks, 3D rules

I like to add, CM gfx are far superior to the Talonsoft series, well maybe not the original Beta Demo GFX, but my Tweaked Textures v2.0 and BTS's gold version graghics look sweet! Which game allows you to see tanks as they are meant to be seen?! Even Panzer Elite (a hardcore Tank sim) pales into insignifcance here

------------------

CCJ

aka BLITZ_Force

My Hompage ----> http://www.geocities.com/coolcolj

Double your immersion with my Tweaked Textures and Saving Private Ryan sound set mods for CM!! Check out my new Textures V2.0 photo Gallery and my music while your there!

[Spook]

I appreciate the fact that you at least detailed the reasons why you didn't like WF. There were other aspects beyond what you've dsecribed that bothered me, like the overly generic rules for artillery, assaults, & fortifications. Between Glenn Saunders & I, we finally did push TalonSoft to revise the bunker/pillbox rules and give more of an assault boost to combat engineers for the Sealion & Rising Sun add-ons. I think Rising Sun was much the better due to Glenn's preserverance on the bunker problems.

I have to disagree about the your graphics/media assessment of WF/EF, though, CoolColJ. For the non-3D environment of the Campaign Series games (where the 3D views in that game were isometric instead), I think the games WF & beyond pretty much pushed the graphics limits that are possible for that game series' premise. Sure, it doesn't look as sharp as your work, but your texture rendering has a little more room to work with than the pixel images of the CS games. At least I feel that WF was quite a notch over the original EF in graphics; I could make out "ambush" camo schemes on some of the late-war German tanks.

As for CM, I regarded the CM beta DEMO infantry graphics as a BIG turn-off, as you've stated also. In my most generous assessment, I couldn't label the CM demo's infantry as much better than "cartoonish" with the poor contrasts. But from what I've seen of your mods, CoolColJ, I know at least of the option to paste in something MUCH better if the final CM infantry doesn't raise the bar much. We'll soon see.

Ed

[Allan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CoolColJ:

Becuase of the old school system, you have to control every single dang unit everyturn.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Although I like the series, this is one aspect that really pains me. For example, I started a dynamic campaign in Rising Sun over the weekend. The first battle with my battalion size force was 21 turns long. It took me about 13 turns just to move my units into attack positions. This took forever. I do like the scenarios since they are smaller and the units are already within close proximity of one another.

Allan

[dumbo]

Interesting I NEVER play scenarios in any wargame I buy (except the CM demo in which I had no choice). To me the campaign systems are the feature I am most interested in in any wargame which is why the SP series has still never left my HD as it still has the best Campaign system IMHO.

It is my deep hope that CM can do the following.

1.) Allow user defined open ended campaigns with randomly generated battles.

2.) Allow your units to gain expereince and upgrades over the time of the campaign.

3.) Have your "core" units carry on from mission to mission.

4.) Allow players to make campaigns as linked scenarios (with core units carrying over with exp and losses).

5.) Allow renaming of units.

Thats my hope, we shall see how CM shapes up.