Changing vehicle specs

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

Greetings everyone! I have several questions about the TacOps.

1. Is there any way to change the characteristics of units? It is not very funny to see our Ukrainian T-84 being inferior to T-90, when, in reality, it is vice versa. It's just to say that T-90 is the modified T-72 while T-84 is the modification of T-80.

2. Are there any dynamic (reactive) armor and/or active tank defence? Any electronic defence system such as Shtora 1 or similar? I ask this because right now all vehicles in the game are VERY vulnerable to long range antitank rockets. This is not very realistic.

I understand, that this questions could have been asked before, but I havn't found anything.

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

> Is there any way to change the characteristics of units?

No, but you can exchange a unit for one that you like better via an Option menu item. If a scenario uses T72s you can change them into some other model of tank.

> any dynamic (reactive) armor and/or active tank defence?

Reactive armor is abstracted into the armor protection values and the probability of kill if hit values.

Reactive armor sounds a lot better than it actually performs under combat conditions against anything other than primitive RPGs. It gets damaged or stripped away by enemy fire and by driving stress and accidents. The activation mechanisms often fail. Also, some if not most medium and heavy anti armor warheads have been modified to work around the defensive effects of reactive armor.

> Any electronic defence system such as Shtora 1 or similar?

No. I don't think that they have been demonstrated to be effective yet except under laboratory conditions.

> I ask this because right now all vehicles in the game are VERY

> vulnerable to long range antitank rockets. This is not very realistic.

I disagree.

[Intruder13]

I’m not too sure about the effectiveness of these “electronic defense systems;” after all, if such systems were on the Iraqi T-72, it didn’t help them because more tanks were destroyed by TOW missiles than Sabot rounds. One thing I’m certain on – the GPS jammers in Iraq didn’t work because we bombed them directly with a GPS guided bomb.

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

Ok, reactive armor is included into the base armor value. Let it be so. But what about the active defence? I mean the "Arena" or similar systems which use the fragmentation charge to detonate upcoming missiles and RPG's while not affecting sabot/heat rounds.

About the EDS. As I know, "Shtora 1" is a new system built on only new Russian and Ukrainian tanks T-90S and T-84. It couldn't have been placed on Iraq tanks. This systems were not yet been tested in real combat, as I know.

But what annoys me most, is the weak armor of T-84 compared to T-90. In fact, as I was saying before, T-90S is the modification of T-72 with a turret from T-80, and T-84 is the modification of T-80, with new all-welded turret, engine, reactive armor, EDS and many other improvements.

Comparing T-90 and T-84 we find out that, in fact, this vehicles are very similar. The T-84 has slightly better armor (mostly because of new turret) and better maneuvrability.

Is there ANY chance that armoring of T-84 will be changed in upcoming patch?

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

> Is there ANY chance that armoring of T-84

> will be changed in upcoming patch?

Send your argument to me via private email to majorh@satx.rr.com.

Repeat the comments that you made above and if possible include citations to references that support your position. If your references include your own personal observations in the field or at an arms trade show/demo then mention that also.

Include the TacOps Armor values that you would prefer to see for the T84 and T90.

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

OK, I will prepare the information and send it to you in a couple of days.

[Redwolf]

There is a high-quality thread about active armor defense systems going on on tanknet right now:

http://63.99.108.76/ubb/Forum13/HTML/002924.html

I certainly wouldn't model anything more than TacOps has right now. I still rate most of the stuff in the smoke-n-mirrors category.

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

Why? It increases the number of possible tactical solutions and adds the diversity in gameplay.

Russian built "Arena" ADS is already in production and is used on BMP-3 and several T-90's. But ADS is not made to protect the tank against KE attacks. It protects it against upcoming ATGM's and RPG's by detecting them and launching a blast of shrapnel in the direction of the attack.

The field trials showed around 75% effectivness in stopping HE attacks. But it is absolutely ineffective against KE attacks, as shrapnel cannot penetrate the hard body of SABOT round, and definately cannot detonate it.

By the way, here, in Ukraine, we are also close on finishing our "Zaslon" ADS.

[Redwolf]

Do you have more info on those field trials, in particular more info on the weapons involved and the how many tests were run?

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

The trials were made during the exibition UralExpoArms-2002, which took place in Nizhniy Tagil polygon, Russia. The amunition used was SPG-9 RR, Fagot-M (AT-4 Spigot) ATGM and Shturm (AT-6 Spiral) ATGM. I don't have info about the number of ammunition fired, but the results of this trials were used in all oficial TTC of "ARENA" APS.

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

By the way, I have mistyped. The actual hit probability is 85%, not 75%.

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

Here is the ARENA's principle of work:

[MajorH TacOps Developer]

Is there a flaw in the following logic?

Tank activates the ARENA system which causes radar waves to be emitted.

Enemy electronic warfare units detect the radar waves and report the tanks' position.

Tank is engaged by enemy artillery.

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

Yes

If an ATGM is launched in the tank, it's position is already known

ARENA scans the 50m radius around the tank. If the enemy radar array is within this radius, he won't be needing any signals to see the tank.

Besides, as I know, the ARENA system is turned on only after the vehicle is targeted by the enemy, i.e. laser ray.

[Tory the Magnus]

How does the tank detect when it is being targetted in the first place so that it can know to turn on it's anti-AT missile system? Also, wouldn't this system be quite large and mean that the other capabilities of the tank would have to be sacrificed to allow it?

[Redwolf]

Not to mention not all ATGMs announce themself with lasers first.

You would need something to trim the radar in the right direction first. A laser peek would be excellent, but it is not always available.

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

How does the tank detect when it is being targetted in the first place so that it can know to turn on it's anti-AT missile system?

The ARENA is turned on if the tank enters potentially hazardous area.

There are plenty of equipment to detect the laser targeting.

Not to mention not all ATGMs announce themself with lasers first.

All incoming ATGMS can be detected by the radar.

It works only on the distance of 50 m. so it cannot be detected by enemy radar array.

You would need something to trim the radar in the right direction first. A laser peek would be excellent, but it is not always available.

The ARENA's radar work's in 300* degrees sector.

Also, wouldn't this system be quite large and mean that the other capabilities of the tank would have to be sacrificed to allow it?

Here's photo of the ARENA. I don't thik I need any commentaries.

[tar]

All incoming ATGMS can be detected by the radar.

It works only on the distance of 50 m. so it cannot be detected by enemy radar array.

[\QUOTE]

I think you have a bit of a misconception about how radar works. If the radar signal is broadcasting, it can be detected. There is no way to make the radio signal it sends out stop after 50m. It goes on out to the horizon.

Detection ranges for radar emitters are much longer than the range at which they can track targets. There are several reasons for this. First of all, tracking requires a round trip of the signal whereas passive detection only needs a one-way trip. Second, only a small fraction of the radiated energy is reflected back toward the tracking antenna by the target. But the full energy is broadcast to the world at large.

I would expect that this system is likely to give the vehicle's position away. It also looks (from the picture) as if it would be rather susceptible to damage from mortar or artillery fire.

Of course, if systems like this become common, then the obvious answer is to replace the laser seeker on your ATGM with one that homes in on radar signals.

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

Of course, if systems like this become common, then the obvious answer is to replace the laser seeker on your ATGM with one that homes in on radar signals.

Exellent idea! All is left to do for Russian tankists in this case is to turn off the ARENA

I think you have a bit of a misconception about how radar works. If the radar signal is broadcasting, it can be detected. There is no way to make the radio signal it sends out stop after 50m. It goes on out to the horizon.

Surely I know this. But detection of signal would need sophisticated radar equipment wich is not installed on tanks and other armored vehicles.

Whatever you do, you'll need to anounce yourself before launching missile. This gives time to turn the system on.

[Tory the Magnus]

You said that the ARENA system as a covering arc of 300 degrees, which area of the tank is located in the 60 degrees that aren't covered or does the AREA array rotate so that no one part of the tank is constantly without coverage? Also, since urban areas seem to be an increasingly common place for tanks to go and the opponents that they are fighting are usually militia with only basic AT weapons, will this system be able to counter dumb fire AT weapons like RPG's, SMAW's or LAAW's, or even wire guided missiles that don't use laser targetting?

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

You said that the ARENA system as a covering arc of 300 degrees, which area of the tank is located in the 60 degrees that aren't covered or does the AREA array rotate so that no one part of the tank is constantly without coverage?

I don't yet have exact info about this, but I don't see any reason that prevents it from rotating.

...will this system be able to counter dumb fire AT weapons like RPG's, SMAW's or LAAW's, or even wire guided missiles that don't use laser targetting?

ARENA attacks any fast-flying heavy object, which comes into 50 m. radius. This doesn't include SABOT rounds and light ammunition.

[tar]

But detection of signal would need sophisticated radar equipment wich is not installed on tanks and other armored vehicles.

Maybe not now. But they can always buy a vehicle-mountable radar detector at Radio Shack. Lots of private cars have them.

[Tory the Magnus]

To pick up speed cameras and stuff. Isn't that what they are used for in private cars, a kind of speed camera detectin system?

[Sir Kozakh Dragonfire]

As I said, ARENA systems are usually turned on just before the contact with the enemy, when there is no matter if he knows you are coming or not.