Thread for Discussion of Cavalry AAR ( CMHQ)

[Fionn]

Ok, I figured that I might as well set up a thread to discuss the Cavalry AAr to save myself from being emailed about it AND to provide a forum for Chris to talk about how he's drubbing me at Verdun .

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Ok, I figured that I might as well set up a thread to discuss the Cavalry AAr to save myself from being emailed about it AND to provide a forum for Chris to talk about how he's drubbing me at Verdun .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks in no small measure to some very heroic units; a particular M-8 comes readily to mind.

[Fionn]

Aye,to survive a wheel hit, multiple 105mm arty and two schreck teams triangulating on him . He should enter the lotto this week .

Honestly though, the real reason was your infantry defensive setup. It was a real buzzsaw and ripped two companies apart in the first 3 turns after you unhid them.. I figure I lost about 50% of my total infantry strength in those companies in just 2 turns. I started with THREE companies and now really only have the survivors of 1 running around ( they're at about 50% strength).

My global morale is at 18%. What's yours Chris?

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

My global morale is at 18%. What's yours Chris?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too funny. Mine is at 18% as well. Our troops are utterly exhausted.

La Ville de Vin Rouge remains in Allied hands for now.

[Fionn]

No wonder your M1919s in the village couldn't shoot straight . Tell them to drink AFTER the battle and not before .

You're at 18% too eh? Damn, it really was a slaughterhouse hehe.

The funny thing is that by the end of the battle if either of us had had a single platoon of reinforcements we'd have won hands down eh? I still had a few HTs running around without MGers.

I only had 1 schreck round left too. I was PETRIFIED that your M8 would take a chance and get close since I really had nothing to stop it once that schreck had fired .

[Lorak]

well.. SO you know guys know that other people will be reading this. I figured I'd post.

I haven't seen the movies (hard drive crashed at home ).

The one thing I am interested in is this:

How is Fionn going to hold on for any amount of time, due to (what I percieve) an almost total lack of infantry, on a map this size.

Lorak

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"someone you trust is one of us"..........the illuminati

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http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[Fionn]

Well Chris and I have played 3 games to completion and are starting our 4th now.

1st one was a night fog battle ( meeting engagement). I think I lost 90 men and he lost 92. It was a draw and a VERY even game all the way through really.

2nd was the Cavalry AAR game which was very interesting.

Our third was a minor victory for Chris ( 41 to 56)... We took to calling Verdun since it was so bloody. Over 700 bodies and 30 vehicles littered the ground by the time we were done.

Our fourth game is a dusk game. Visibility is about 450 metres and Chris is attacking a town ( since we both like city-fighting). I'm confident of winning this one and pushing him back into the Bay of Biscay .

Anyways, the game we're discussing is the third one so we're not giving anything about the Cavalry AAR away i think.

[This message has been edited by Fionn (edited 07-26-2000).]

[Fionn]

Just bumping this to the top since Matt has posted the AAR for turns 11 to 15

[KiwiJoe]

Has this game been completed? will we be giving away info if we talk about particulars?

[John Erickson]

A quote from Fionn's AAR on CMHQ:

"this platoon comprises 3 squads, the HQ element, a mortar team and a bazooka team. It appears that Chris is attaching his mortar and bazooka elements to his forward platoons. This provides me with some valuable intelligence. He obviously believes in homogeneity and isn’t saving his mortar teams to utilize en masse against one specific portion of my front. "

My question: How do others handle those 60mm mortars? I usually leave them with their CO and attach the bazookas to my manuever platoons but it's hard to judge the effectiveness of the mortars. Usually I'm happy if I can get the enemy to duck when the 60's start shooting. Has anyone had much success actually causing casulties with them?

John

[Lorak]

60mm mortars can be very effective if you can keep them out of the line of fire. If you can catch the enemy in the trees, your almost certain to cause some high casualties.

Lorak

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"someone you trust is one of us"..........the illuminati

*

http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/combatmissionclub

Lorak's FTX for CM <--Proud member of the Combat Mission Webring

[Fionn]

This game has been completed and so all discussion is AOK.

I think Chris and I will limit discussion to only what has currently been covered in the AARs so far. The game is 30 turns long so should be all posted by Monday IIRC>

Once that's done then Chris and I will begin posting an AAR of an on-going game ( a rather bloody ongoing game eh Chris? )

John, I had 3 x 60mm mortars take out a platoon in VOT. All I did was ID enemy units in buildings and then area target the buildings. When the buildings came down so did the number of enemy troops.

Generally though I think 60mm mortars are really only useful for suppression. If you're waiting to see them take out a squad you'll be waiting for a long time UNLESS the squad is in a building or some other favourable mortar terrain.

[KiwiJoe]

I find 60mm mortors perfect for taking out mg nests, AT/IF guns, flak cannons etc. They are wickedly accurate and almost always force the crew to abandon within 1 turn.

Unlucky shot on that panther fionn Guess its a movable mg nest now.

[Fionn]

Indeed.

I was pretty pissed when the Jackson survived my hit and then, calmly as anything, hit and damaged my Panther... I mean, with its TC dead ( since he hasn't re-appeared I figure he must be dead) I expected it to be shocked at least long enough for me to get another hit in.

[KiwiJoe]

Yeah I was watching the movie from the german side and was surprised when the jackson fired back so quick.

It looks like u r in major trouble all round. Id be surprised if u pulled a win outta it.

[Guest grunto]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Erickson:

..He obviously believes in homogeneity and isn’t saving his mortar teams to utilize en masse against one specific portion of my front. "

My question: How do others handle those 60mm mortars?

John<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like to put the (81mm onboard and 60mm platoon) mortars together with the company hq and have the hq spot for the mortars.

some people like to keep the 60mm mortars with their squads.

the 60mm mortar is a nice weapon. it's better than the '50mm' (2 inch) available to the british. use them against infantry in woods and light armor in any terrain. don't forget about their smoke capability.

andy

[Guest Simon]

Well my thoughts before viewing the lastest turns... and in light of the fact that the battle is already finished:

Viewing the US setup was very compelling, the use of teams for a recon screen and the general order everything was setup has influenced my attack philosophy, and even my current scenario design (setup wise).

Chris' patience is remarkable, he started his right flank/Fionn's left flank recon elements forward 3 or 4 turns before even moving a single other unit. This might have been decisive had Fionn played it more cautious

(given it more time to unfold).

My impression was that this was intended to give Fionn some FOW signitures to worry about, a feint in other words. Seeing as Chris, had the bulk of his force and nearly all his armor on the other (his left) flank.

So Fionn's proactive recce with halftrack was instructive, it would be easy for someone like me to have put that HT out of LOS in support of my infantry ready to move forward in an anti infantry role with my tanks. The bold recce (had Fion had more resources especially) might have been -- if not decisive -- at least very helpfull in commiting reserves.

Now I don't know the outcome but I suspect the writing is on the wall based on force size. None the less I'd have liked to see this battle with Fionn having a bit more in the way of defensive assets. And perhaps another 2 or 3 hundred meters between the forces. Too bad ultra huge maps are so hard on the frame rate, I would really dig seeing you guys go at it, in a map that required extensive recon and a LOT of manuvering.

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Simon

http://members.tripod.com/~sjuncal/ammodump/

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Simon:

Chris' patience is remarkable, he started his right flank/Fionn's left flank recon elements forward 3 or 4 turns before even moving a single other unit

My impression was that this was intended to give Fionn some FOW signitures to worry about, a feint in other words. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Simon.

Yes, it was meant to do exactly that. I had hoped he would bite more than he did.

His use of counter-reconnaissance is excellent. Take good notes

You should see the battle we're fighting right now...Actually, you will see it soon, since we're writing up the AAR for it right now. It will be an AAR that is updated daily as we do turns. It will be as close to a real-time AAR as we can make it.

[19 Echo]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Generally though I think 60mm mortars are really only useful for suppression. If you're waiting to see them take out a squad you'll be waiting for a long time UNLESS the squad is in a building or some other favourable mortar terrain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, but they're really good for suppression. You can have them fire until your own infantry is practically on top of the enemy without worrying too much about short rounds. They're also nice if you need smoke right now. I've found that their crews are pretty good at picking their own targets if they have LOS. I've played a number of scenarios where they fired right where I needed them to without my ordering them.

I was surprised at how powerful the 81mm mortars are. The 120's are downright terrifying.

-- 19 Echo

[Wolfe]

The close-in fighting hasn't really started yet, but it looks like Chris is doing a very good job of both keeping his platoons together while still spacing them out enough from each other so that Fionn's arty can't completely ruin a whole company at a time. Bunching up my infantry too much is something I have a tendency to do.

As much as Fionn says he wanted to attrit Chris from a distance, it looks like Fionn is the one being attrited. First, he loses an 81mm Mortar arty spotter (it routes with 15 batteries-worth still remaining - ouch!), then he loses the Panther's gun, and the next turn both his 37mm Flak. Not exactly what Fionn had in mind!

BTW, I like the fact that the Panther's gun, while taken out, was not shown as a gun hit to Chris. Though the tank immediately stopped targeting the Jackson once it was hit, Chris couldn't be positive he had taken out the gun. I *hate* gun hits. It removes all the tension of the situation, but doesn't allow you the satisfaction of the kill. How rude!

Fionn did a good job of targeting his arty right in Chris' path. When looking at the first few turns of this latest batch, I tried to guess where Chris was going to see if I could accurately aim my arty if I were the German player. Initially, I got it correct, but after watching a bit of the action on Fionn's left, I came back to it, and decided I would have changed my arty targeting. Turns out, my initial choice would have been correct, but I likely would have moved the targets and screwed it up!

Fionn, did you initially consider buying bigger arty? Your 81's and 105's don't seem to be doing too much damage so far. You don't get as many chances, but having just that right amount of arty in just the right place can be devastating.

- Chris

[Fionn]

KiwiJoe,

Hehe . Strangely enough I was feeling relatively happy with the game at that time. I think it must come from usually playing as the Germans and thus always being outnumbered and outgunned.

3:1 odds are just an opportunity to shine you know .

Simon,

You're correct. Chris' approach on my left flank WAS designed to feint my forces to that flank IMO. OTOH I'm sure he knew that this was something which would only work against a more easily rattled opponent. My counter-reconnaissance movements on my right flank were a direct response to the lack of movement there. IF my 250/9 on my right hadn't found any enemy units on that flank then I would have shifted my forces leftwards. As it was it spotted a TD and that told me that I was definitely going to be facing on attack down the right.

And Simon, you're right. IF I'd had some more units I'd have probably put a tank or two in support of the HT and an infantry platoon trotting along in support. That way I could have established myself forward of where Chris expected me and delayed his entire right flank for some time. Still, I bought my forces using the correct points ration SO I traded arty and other units for infantry. Also, this goes with my "beat the tanks" philosophy. Since I buy so much AT weaponry I'm often a bit shy of infantry so I'm used to fighting outnumbered on the infantry front. In fact, I think that being outnumbered on the infantry front actually makes me play better since once I have anything approaching parity I become sloppy.

Wolfe,

Yes, I considered buying 150s etc BUT I find them to be a bit of a waste. See, I like using my 81mm arty to pin and delay the enemy. The amount of ammo I get for an 81mm FO allows me to pin and delay 4 or 5 different platoons for 2 minutes each. That adds up to a HUGE disorganisation/delay int he enemy's attack.

Rememeber, killing the enemy isn't the only way to gain an advantage. Throwing his plan out of whack, disrupting his co-ordination etc all create the sort of advantages which allow you to kill him in large numbers in close combat.

A platoon which has advanced beyond its fellows and which runs into an ambush can be anihilated for the cost of 2 or 3 casualties. IF it had been supported by a firebase then you would suffer far more grievously. My 81mm mortars allow me to create those wedges in geography and time which either force Chris to slow his attack OR run the risk of running unsupported units into ambushes.

Unfortunately for me he is too good of a player to run unsupported infantry forward but at least it slows him.

So, everyone seems to be agreed that my plan got a bit screwed up eh? Where do you think it started going most wrong?

[Shep]

Near as I can figure, Fionn, after reading the AAR...

Your main mistake was MESSING WITH THE U.S. CAVALRY IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

Get some, Major Carnes.

Now...

The comments on winning the recon battle are especially valuable. It is often decisive to not only gain adequate recon on the enemy, but also to flummox his efforts through deception, or through suppression and destruction of his recon assets.

Mark

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Scouts Out!

[Fionn]

Oh gees, more scouts.

How does it feel to know your most valuable contribution to the army is doing an enemy front line trace with your own bodies and vehicles? (recon by death )

Still, I think the GIs' problems began with signing up for the cav . I manage to get a few more licks in before this is over.

[Blackhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Oh gees, more scouts.

Still, I think the GIs' problems began with signing up for the cav . I manage to get a few more licks in before this is over.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually they started long before then even.

And yes, you get many licks in

[Shep]

Fionn, is that the best you have?

Being a DIP is a wonderful way to go... haven't you heard?

Of course, I have some vague recollection that we were supposed to avoid decisive engagements or something. Always annoyed me, that.

At least you have the humility (seriously) to put the AAR up there when you received a drubbing at the hands of one of our Finest. There are some great lessons there on both sides.

Mark

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Scouts Out!