Four Apparently Silly Questions

[M Hofbauer]

following will be four questions I'ld like to present to the highly esteemed public of this forum. the thing about all these questions is that they seem silly at first, so be sure to read the explanation provided with them.

1. Why can't immobilized tanks rotate?

-I would assume that when I gave it a "Rotate" order to pay attention into a certain direction then the turret would turn into that direction even if the hull is immobilized. Because, imagine your tank is immobilized with his vulnerable rear towards a house behind which you are sure a threat is lurking and emerging next turn. Now that you can't run away or turn to face it with your front armor, the least you could and should do was to face into that direction with the turret so that even though you are showing your vulnerable rear you could at least be prepared to fire first. The way it is now it doesn't even accept the Rotate command. hey, I thought it's the advantage of a tank over an assault gun to have the turret facing in a different direction than the hull....

2. Why can my Tank not destroy a burning building?

-imagine you have an immobilized Sherman with plenty of HE. a few hundred meters away you have a bunch of german infantry squads. the problem: there's a big, two-level "light building" between you and then germans. your idea: blow the frickin' house to smithereens to have a clear shot at the germans (I know, rubble and all still having some height, yet still it would work). now it can happen that during your engagement with the building the latter catches fire. which is bad because as soon as it burns the tank will not area fire at it anymore. I know that the manual says that after a while the burning building crumbles (though I have yet to witness that), and that no german squad will eneter it, but both doesn't help me since I want the building REMOVED within the next immediate turns. however tanks refuse to area target a burning building. why is this?

3. Why do some artillery impacts leave craters?

-of course all bnarrages create impact craters. that's not what I mean. I mean the terrain feature "crater" whzich is shown in the mouseover when you let troops move into these. only some craters are indeed craters. of the same artillery barrage, on the same terrain, say, open ground, some impacts create craters, and others don't. Is this intended? It's not absolutely out of question that there is a certain variation in depth etc., but since it's the same ammunition type fired exactly the same impacting into the same terrain one would thing the difference wouldn't be so big as to both create craters and non-craters. So I am not sure, might be intended, that's why I am asking.

4. Do trees give better cover?

-while we are at it, what is beter in case of an incoming artillery barrage, to have your people hide and cover prone in woods or have them take cover and lay prone in the open? Since I somewhat an airburst-phobic I would rather have my people hide in the open. This is what happened recently in a PBEM: me american good guys, I knew there was a 15cm artillery barrage coming into the patch of woods where a platoon of infantry was hiding. so I thought: I need them to be ground-hugging, and I need them to get out of the trees. Solution: have them CRAWL out of the woods, dispersed onto the open soft soil. What happened? well, they crawled out alright, but when the first rounds started dropping, the tacAI obviously thought different than I did and let them RUN erect back into the WOODS. It was not a pretty sight. So I pondered over this. Sure, even with airbursts, forests do provide some cover, treetrunks and all. But the question remains: when under artillery fire, is it better to be hugging ground in the open, or to be in woods.

all this is 1.03 (too many PBEMs going currently for a switch to 1.04) but these things are presumably not a 1.03/1.04 issue.

yours sincerely,

M.Hofbauer

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

1. Why can't immobilized tanks rotate?

2. Why can my Tank not destroy a burning building?

4. Do trees give better cover?

M.Hofbauer<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Have you tried 'ambush'? I am quite sure the turret will rotate. SOL with a Stug though...

2. Dunno, but I think you have a point. But then again, a lot of people would complain about the waste of ammo that follows from tanks continuing to fire at a burning building out of which OPFOR was forced by the fire. So I would guess BTS can not win either way.

3. Dunno

4. Stay away from trees, at least that is my experience. In some recent PBEMs I have lost half-squads to single treebursts. Never happened when in the open.

Hope that helps.

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Andreas

[Graaf Spee]

Some quick answers which I dont find silly at all.

1. ?

2. Something Ive been thinking about... I think they dont target a burning building because they cant see it. Lots of smoke! And if its on fire it will continue to burn and produce smoke for the rest of the game. And even if it should collapse there will still be fire and smoke, so you cant still get a LOS through it.

3. The way I see it are that only some of the grenades leave craters which are big enough to give some shelter. A bigger gun probably has an increased chance of leaving a crater.I havent tried it but it would makes sense and Ive always assumed that it works that way.

4. I guess only BTS can answer that. But I wouldnt be suprised if real men on the battlefield usually run inte the forest even though it might provide less shelter than being in the open.

/Kristian

[This message has been edited by Graaf Spee (edited 08-23-2000).]

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

1. Why can't immobilized tanks rotate?

2. Why can my Tank not destroy a burning building?

4. Do trees give better cover?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1)I think it is because the player cannot control the direction of the turret except by targeting specific objects.The rotate command does not apply to the turret but to the hull, so an immobilized tank just ignores it.

2) If the building is burning, it should not be possible for a tank commander to see whether or not there are any enemies in it. OTOH, I don't see a problem if it were changed so that tanks could shoot at burning buildings if ordered to do so.

3) I dunno, but I would like to know; I have so far assumed that my infantgry are safer from artillery inside forested terrain than in the open. What is the probvability of casualties in each case? BTS? I would guess that infantry might be more vulnerable from very close explosions (tree bursts), but less vulnerable from explosions further away, since some of the shrapnel would be absorbed by trees.

About your infantry running back into the woods, that would be the logical thing to do if they were under fire from other units in addition to the artillery.

It is absolutely important and urgent that I know whether or not infantry is more vulnerable from artillery inside woods, because that is where they are headed for in my present pbem game, and I am sure that my opponent has his finger on the artillery trigger

Henri

[Guest Mortiis]

LOL I would also love to hear an official comment on this for my pbem opponent is nailing me with arty as well.

[chrisl]

It's come up a few times and infantry seem to be more vulnerable in woods (due to treebursts) but armored vehicles and fortifications are safer in the woods (due to treebursts-- fewer shells impact directly, and the treeburst bits are less dangerous to an AFF/bunker)

[This message has been edited by chrisl (edited 08-23-2000).]

[Magnus]

Concerning question 3, are you using VT munitions with your artillery ? VT munitions are to explode before reaching the ground but sometimes don't, which could result in the crater/non-crater phenomena you describe.

Magnus

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[jgdpzr]

Marcus (that is your name, isn't it?),

I believe the rotate command refers to rotating the hull of a vehicle, not the turret. Like someone else suggested, giving them an ambush command will mean the turret will turn in the direction you wish. However, it may not fire if the target is well beyond the ambush point. With 1.04, it may be possible to set the ambush command, and then cancel it next turn and keep the turret where it is. Not sure, though, haven't tried it. The turret will remain oriented toward the last target in 1.04.

[Guest aaronb]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

1. Why can't immobilized tanks rotate?

2. Why can my Tank not destroy a burning building?

3. Why do some artillery impacts leave craters?

4. Do trees give better cover?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. the last time this was asked, the answer was that the single track left would roll the entire tank forward, and that this is actually how tracks are fixed/changed: break a link, roll forward, repair, roll back. There is no way to lock the wheels on one side once the track is off.

2. your stated need is to clear LOS: the rubble would still be burning, so no LOS, so it's a moot point.

3. varying hardness in the ground? Larger artillery creates more craters per impact. BTW, craters make great ad-hoc fighing positions on the advance. So, you can deliberatly shell an empty area to provided your advancing troops with cover - or turn the tables on your opponent by using _his_ craters for shelter.

4. one word: airbursts. The best place to slaughter infantry is in the woods. OTOH, infantry seems more likely to panic if shelled in the open.

[dalem]

M-

Re the 'why woods' question:

It probably boils down to this - woods are good cover from 'distant' detonations/bullets, but can be a little nastier for you with respect to close airbursts. I'd rather be behind a tree, on average, than behind nothing at all.

-dale

[Mannheim Tanker]

Henri wrote: "It is absolutely important and urgent that I know whether or not infantry is more vulnerable from artillery inside woods, because that is where they are headed for in my present pbem game, and I am sure that my opponent has his finger on the artillery trigger"

I'd love to know too, since I have my finger on the artillery trigger in a PBEM I've always assumed it was better to hit them in the trees than in the open.

[Guest Madmatt]

#1 You are forgetting that immobolized doesnt neccesarily mean thrown track. It can mean jammed boogy wheel, striped transmission, ruined drive train, fuel line puncture, engine flooding/damage, etc...

Its an abstraction for TANK WON'T GO

Madmatt

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[coe]

hmmm, so how does the splinters from the trees get factored in.

That'd be cool after a bombardment

if you could see some of the trees becoming more and more barren!

[Banshee]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

4. Do trees give better cover?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In "Citizen Soldier" by Stephen Ambrose he talks about the Hurtgen Forest Campaign and the fact that the Germans fused the shells to go off at the slightest impact, thus exploding in the treetops and showering the prone infantry. 2 lessons were learned from this, 1) Put cover over your foxhole in the forest and 2) Stand up and against a tree when under that type of arty attack.

So you were probably correct in bringing the troops out of cover, but the TacAI always will return troops to cover when under attack, so you're kinda SOL. The TacAi is so good at so many other things that I think we can forgive this very small point, after all we want BTS to keep working on the expansion pack and CM2!

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Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

#1 You are forgetting that immobolized doesnt neccesarily mean thrown track. It can mean jammed boogy wheel

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boogy wheel?

"Rewind your mind and rethread your head, Kommander Kool gonna lay down some HE for all the cats and kittens in the...what?...Oh, man! We lost the boogy wheel! Private Sweetlove!"

"Yes, my Funkdafied Fuehrer?"

"We lost the boogy wheel, man! Time to split!"

"Drag."

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[This message has been edited by Chupacabra (edited 08-23-2000).]