H39 Hotchkiss support group

[ncounio]

Well , I am starting a H39 support group as I cannot stand to see this tank considered as utter crap by a lot of board members

You need balls of steel and big nerves (or perhaps the contrary) to roam the countryside with a tank that was sub par already in 1940.

So if you want to manifest your support to the much despised H39 please post below.

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Nicolas

http://perso.infonie.fr/nicolas.counio/combat_mission1.html

"Deux intellectuels assis vont moins loin qu'une brute qui marche"

Un Taxi Pour Tobrouk

[apex]

Actually it was above par in 1940, although the one-man turret undoubtely was a major shortcoming. In CM, it fills the same niche as the ACs and the Lynx, namely reconnaisance and light anti-armor work. And everything with at least one MG is good against infantry to some extent.

apex

[ncounio]

Well when I said sub par, I was refering to the B1 Bis which will be the uberpanzer of CM early years

Think this will perhaps demonstrate that german early tanks were in no way superior to allies tanks in the early years of the war.

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Nicolas

http://perso.infonie.fr/nicolas.counio/combat_mission1.html

"Deux intellectuels assis vont moins loin qu'une brute qui marche"

Un Taxi Pour Tobrouk

[Pascal DI FOLCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ncounio:

Well , I am starting a H39 support group as I cannot stand to see this tank considered as utter crap by a lot of board members

You need balls of steel and big nerves (or perhaps the contrary) to roam the countryside with a tank that was sub par already in 1940.

So if you want to manifest your support to the much despised H39 please post below.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Salut Nicolas (et oui un autre Français !)

Indeed the H39 is a good tank : in one quick battle I've played against the AI, I took a group of weirdy English vehicles (Wasp, AVRE, Sexton...) and engineer support.

The AI took infantry, supported by 2 H-39s and some ATGs... and kicked my a** hard : the H-39 KO'ed the Sexton, then pounded the AVRE while moving somewhat- so the 290mm mortar never had a chance to hit, and lastly when a Wasp tried a flanking move against them under cover it was ambushed by an ATG !

So they are fearsome opponents - OK I had a crap troop with no AT power, I played this one for fun, just to see the flame sheets and the 290mm explosion wrecking buildings

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PDF

[Guest Germanboy]

Indeed the H-39 is a mighty weapon in the arsenal of the German player. It causes the Verdammte Amerikanischer to yell 'Tiger, Tiger' and run away leaving lines of brown liquid behind them. It causes the Tommies to cower and ask for three sugars in their tea. The French just gape in wonder saying 'Francois, je reprend cette char de combat, il'ya quelques annees, c'est tres jolie...', scratching their heads that these things are still around and being used, thus leaving them wide open to flank attacks.

You can in fact use three of them to pound two squads of US paras for turns without end, never killing anyone there. It also holds the distinction of being the only tank in the CM arsenal high and wide that can be taken out by one shot of a sniper. Truly, such a formidable generator of mirth has yet to be seen on the Allied side. Again, Allied armour playing catch-up, so what else is new.

Ps. Is it true that the H-39 almost received a great price at the World Exhibition in Paris in 1900?

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Andreas

[Jarmo]

It's a neat vehicle against AC's. In a way better than Lynx.

Cheap too. Too bad it can be taken out by .50 cal. That kind

of limits it's usefulness.

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Now, would this brilliant plan involve us climbing out of

our trenches and walking slowly towards the enemy sir?

[ncounio]

Hi Andreas,

Your french is way better than my german, all I can remember is : "Tut mir leid !" and "Wollen sie mit mir tanzen frauleïn" (all with a thick french accent)

Sure the germans did a good job to keep up french tank in good shape , free french even used "liberated" B1-BIS to conquer Royan in 1944.

As to the Paris 1900 world exposition, I believe H39 recieved a runner up award, only to be beaten by an italian tankette or some kind of early panzer with crappy design and no main gun

That is why considering our achievement in tanks, we builded until the last 80's the successfull AMX-30 which was the only "modern" MBT who feared HMG fire just like our football players feared mighty europeans teams

Luckily we are now both better both in tank design and in football (We arrre the Chaaampionsss !!! with thick french accent again)

PS : Andreas, is that true you are Marie Curie Boyfriend ?

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Nicolas

http://perso.infonie.fr/nicolas.counio/combat_mission1.html

"Deux intellectuels assis vont moins loin qu'une brute qui marche"

Un Taxi Pour Tobrouk

[This message has been edited by ncounio (edited 08-07-2000).]

[RMC]

The H-39 can be a potent weapon in the right situation. A friend wanted to show me how pathetic they were so we played a hotseat battle with 17 H-39s against 3 Shermans. He likes open terrain so we got a large farmland map with light trees. The H-39s died but did manage to immobilize two of the Shermans. I came very close to killing a Sherman but the TC got wacked and the driver bailed before they got the shot off. Allied Total Victory.

In a rematch on a village map with moderate tree coverage the story was much different. 10 H-39s destroyed, 3 Shermans destroyed. Axis Major (maybe minor) Victory. It got really tense as the last Sherman ran from the attacking horde. Even then my opponent said he would still bet on the Sherman. He might have won but his sherman never got to its new firing position to turn and face the H-39 mass so it took one up the ass and it was all over. It was a shinderella shtory.

And H-39s should be a great tool to deal with those pesky T-8s.

[IntelWeenie]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ncounio:

Well when I said sub par, I was refering to the B1 Bis which will be the uberpanzer of CM early years

Think this will perhaps demonstrate that german early tanks were in no way superior to allies tanks in the early years of the war.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This makes me wonder how the lack of radios and early war French tank tactics will be implemented in CM3-4. Will it be too easy to use these (relatively) fine tanks in an ahistorical manner? Will BTS find a way to force the player to mimic the way things really happened? (Yes, I'm thinking of the ASL "platoon move" among other things.)

Ah, I can see the "Gamey French Tanks?" threads now...

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"Belly to belly and everything's better" - Russian proverb

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie:

This makes me wonder how the lack of radios and early war French tank tactics will be implemented in CM3-4. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One thing that was done with the H-39 is giving it a lousy ROF. The average French guy could go and have a rouge, a café créme, a game of Pétanque, flirt with Brigitte Bardot, have an argument about global capitalism and burn down the McDonalds in Millau in the time it takes Hans the Gunner/Loader/TC/Radio-operator/MG-operator to reload the pitiful implement that calls itself a gun on the H-39.

As for French/English/Polish tactics at the beginning of the war, you can well nigh forget about that, I would expect. We are all playing with 20-20 hindsight here, and the better players have learned from the mistakes that e.g. the Commonwealth made in tank-infantry cooperation early in Normandy. And to program the AI in such a way to deliberately recreate these mistakes is maybe very difficult. Another factor is that many of these mistakes were made on levels outside of CM's scope.

This brings me to something I have been thinking about a bit lately, namely the historical accuracy of scenarios. Even if you manage to get the terrain right, have the correct TO&E down to the regimental goat, will you be able to have a recreation of the fight? Not IMO. That is because many of the players here know much better how combined arms work than the commanders on the spot did. We are also less snobbish and hidebound (something e.g. Tout claims RTR soldiers were) and therefore willing to learn. Would any CM player worth his or her thought park a row of vehicles on a country road if you let them?

Any comments?

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Andreas

[Dick Reece]

Currently an operation I did involving H-39's and Stuarts is being playtested.If any of you Hotchkiss fans are interested in helping with it, give me a yell via e-mail and I'll send it to you when I get off work.

[Blue Macs]

the trick with any tank is to pick on something your own size. H39's are very good anti-lightarmour weapons and are very fast at sneaking to the back of the map and causing havoc, but i wouldn't put it head-to-head with a sherman jumbo

[ncounio]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for French/English/Polish tactics at the beginning of the war, you can well nigh forget about that, I would expect. We are all playing with 20-20 hindsight here, and the better players have learned from the mistakes that e.g. the Commonwealth made in tank-infantry cooperation early in Normandy. And to program the AI in such a way to deliberately recreate these mistakes is maybe very difficult. Another factor is that many of these mistakes were made on levels outside of CM's scope<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with you Andreas, problem was not the tanks, nor the men but rather the doctrine used by french high command that was irrelevant at this time and that is beyond CM scale .

That is also why accurate recreation of actual events cannot be achieved in CM (ie Villers-Bocage).

BTW Andreas, we do not torch Mac Donalds, we unbuild them in a sort of reverse engeneering effort . And Brigitte Bardot , now we speak about Sophie Marceau or Laetitia Casta...

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Nicolas

http://perso.infonie.fr/nicolas.counio/combat_mission1.html

"Deux intellectuels assis vont moins loin qu'une brute qui marche"

Un Taxi Pour Tobrouk

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ncounio:

That is also why accurate recreation of actual events cannot be achieved in CM (ie Villers-Bocage).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I am also wondering whether an attempt to recreate a historical scenario without any regard to the constraints of the game and the hindsight effect of players is really worthwhile, because it might not make for very good playing. I would be much more interested in good to PBEM, historically possible scenarios (i.e. not 25 JagdTigers versus 40 Jumbo Shermans), I think. YMMV.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ncounio:

BTW Andreas, we do not torch Mac Donalds, we unbuild them in a sort of reverse engeneering effort . And Brigitte Bardot , now we speak about Sophie Marceau or Laetitia Casta...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was not quite sure the exact method, but I saw a picture of the guy triumphant in his handcuffs, and lots of post-cards linking it to the Seattle protests when I was in Millau last week. I am sure the twon was much improved by the, err, deconstruction effort. These inhabitants of the Grandes Causses are not to be trifled with.

Granted, Sophie has a lot more appeal than Brigitte. Can only faintly remember the other girl though. In general, any French girl will do, I live in England...

Please note that all smilies on this iBook were dumped into a river by enraged French workers.

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Andreas

[ncounio]

Ah you spent some holidays, in Millau, nice place ?

The Guy you're talking about is our new secret weapon, He is called Jose Bové (Model 1) only a prototype armed with 2 20 kg Roquefort launcher. enough said that he is the ultimate weapon of modern warfare. Who else could have help setting up such nice riots in Seattle and Davos ???

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Nicolas

http://perso.infonie.fr/nicolas.counio/combat_mission1.html

"Deux intellectuels assis vont moins loin qu'une brute qui marche"

Un Taxi Pour Tobrouk

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ncounio:

Ah you spent some holidays, in Millau, nice place ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually spent it in a farm house on the Causse Mejean, close to Saint-Enimie. Very nice indeed. We went to Millau twice to raid the market and buy too much wine. I even managed to pick up some local history about Maquis activity (by the Bir Hakeim Brigade or Batallion) in the region. That involved a major firefight that wiped out most of the unit in August 1944 (IIRC) at La Parade. Interestingly enough the informer was the French police sub-prefect. The German unit was some Armenian outfit under German officers and they shot 44 of the prisoners. About 120 IIRC were sent back to Germany, and many of those also died while working slave labour.

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Andreas

[ncounio]

Well we had also our war criminals sadly, a few bought out Hitler's agenda including a few in french police which on the other hand fought to liberate Paris.

What was the name of that infamous sous-prefet ?

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Nicolas

http://perso.infonie.fr/nicolas.counio/combat_mission1.html

"Deux intellectuels assis vont moins loin qu'une brute qui marche"

Un Taxi Pour Tobrouk

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ncounio:

Well we had also our war criminals sadly, a few bought out Hitler's agenda including a few in french police which on the other hand fought to liberate Paris.

What was the name of that infamous sous-prefet ?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was only on two pages in an illustrated history about the Lozére 1920-1950. They did not mention his name. I understand that since everybody was in the Résistance (much like everybody was against Hitler all the time in Germany), this is still a bit of a sensitive issue in France. Apparently the Sous-Prefet called the German Kommandantur in Mende one morning and alerted them to the presence of 'terrorists' in La Parade, and things went ugly from there. The Germans apparently only had 3,000 soldiers to control the Département, which is a joke, if you have ever seen it. So they must have been mighty glad to have the Maquis served to them on a silver platter.

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Andreas

[Rattus]

I was looking for the H39(?) to make a QB but could not find it in the German OB. Is there a particular time frame for it (not 39-40!).

At least the comander/gunner would not have to woory about the Radio.. (except maybe in Platoon/Cmpy leaders.

I need to practice before slaughtering the fascists with the 3eme DLM from Prioux's cavalry corps! (Actually I don't think they used H35's or H39's but you take what you can get!)

"Allons enfants de la Patrie..."

[Sailor Malan]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ncounio:

Well when I said sub par, I was refering to the B1 Bis which will be the uberpanzer of CM early years

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

B1 bis isn't a real uberpanzer. If you want a real uberpanzer, you need a Matilda 11. Who needs a gun that can fire HE. In fact, real experts go for the Matilda 1 - who needs a gun!

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The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall)

[RMC]

Rattus,

The H39 is only availablein June 44.

[Guest Heinz 25th PzReg]

Hello guys

I don't think I want to be in this support group of yours Ncunio.

At my old army cavalry base in Norway(Rena), there was an old H-39 Hotchiss that the Germans left behind after the war. There was also some StuGIII's there, but thats another story. So me and my friends tried to get into this thing, but the turret hatch was stuck! It probably hadn't been opened for 50 years or so, so it was all rusty and stuff. But we didn't give up, and we went to get some equipment from our tank toolkit. We used a tool to crank up the old hatch, and we were able to see inside the little wondertank. Damn, that was a small tank!!! I don't understand how anybody could have fought from these vehicles, hehe. The turret is very small, and the driver has even less space! Unfortunatly this H-39 was so rusty inside, and the engine was probably useless too. Me & my friends had some ideas for what we would do when we where discharged. We thought about painting the H-39 pink, and driving it around the camp!! That would have made the base commander pretty angry, lol.

Hmm, I think I will play some more with this tank after all. And Ncunio.....sign me up for that support group anyway.

Heinz

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"To subdue your enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Visit my AAR site:

home.online.no/~andhess/cm/

[Henri]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

The average French guy could go and have a rouge, a café créme, a game of Pétanque, flirt with Brigitte Bardot, have an argument about global capitalism and burn down the McDonalds in Millau in the time it takes Hans the Gunner/Loader/TC/Radio-operator/MG-operator to reload the pitiful implement that calls itself a gun on the H-39.

Any comments?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, you young whippersnappers should know that Brigitte Bardot was not around in WW2. She was more Vietnam-war-era.Marlene Dietrich would be more appropriate, although she was German... -well, she WAS sleeping with Jean Gabin at the time (she once said that he had the nicest hips she had ever seen -it was improper to mention the body part she was thinking of at the time ), so...

Henri

[This message has been edited by Henri (edited 08-07-2000).]

[Rattus]

Thanks - and yes sign me up as a supporter too!

I wonder if the H39 in Norway was left behind by the Anglo-French expeditionary force in 1940. I know the French took some tanks and chenillettes(?) with them and the tanks at least saw action.

[tss]

Probably the last tank battle where H39s participated was at Tornio October 5 1944.

About 20 Hotchkissess and Somuas supported a German counter attack against Finns. Finns had a company of T-26 tanks. This was probably the only tank battle in 1944 (perhaps in the whole war) where both sides used captured vehicles that had been designed before the war. One German tank was destroyed and one Finnish one damaged in the tank duel.

In addition to that loss Finnish schreckmen destroyed four German tanks (I think that the expression "hoist by own petard" is quite appropriate here) and the attack was repulsed.

The identity of the tank that was destroyed by a T-26 was never conclusively established as the guy who checked the battlefield didn't know anything about tanks. It was probably a Hotchkiss but its description is not a complete match, since it speaks of "a light 6 ton tank" while Hotchkiss weighted 12 tons.

- Tommi