mccooper Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 I've been playing CM for a while now but mainly as the Germans but recently I switched to the Allies to try the missions from the other side and noticed something odd.... specifically a Firefly IIC and Stuart Kangaroo. The Firefly IIC never existed - some people claim otherwise but no photographic evidence has ever been produced. There is a Firefly VC based on the M4A4 (Sherman V) and there is the IC based on the M4. There also a IC Hybrid which uses the cast front hull/glacis of the M4A1 and M4 rear hull. Some people get this last one confused and classify it as IIC. As a side note these is what some people classify a IIC in Borden Canada which uses the Cdn Grizzly hull. This is thought to have been a experimental vehicle and it never saw combat. Stuart Kangaroo? I've seen the Priest and the Ram varients but I've never heard of this beast. I've heard about/seen the Stuart Recce vehicle which had the turret removed to reduce the vehicle's profile but even with the turret removed it couldn't be considered a APC. Its too damn small! (Unless the team is the vehicle's crew.) As side note according to the crews once the turret was removed the Stuart apparently became a real speed demon. Are there any other minor errors like this and will these be fixed in future upgrade. Speaking of upgrades I can't wait to install 1.05 with building damage/condition patch. ------------------ From Robert Jordan's FoH, "Dovie'andi se tovya sagain ... Time to roll the dice." Mark Cooper BBA, BAA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 According to "British and American Tanks of WWII" by P Chamberlain and C. Ellis--there is a Sherman IIC (Firefly)--it was the British designation for an M4A1 rearmed in Britain with a 17 lber gun...Page 131.. NO picture, though.. There is also info on the Stuart Kangaroo--"Late war conversion of redundant vehicles (any mark) by removal of turret and addition of seats for infantry for APC role in infantry units of armoured brigades. 1943-45 and post-war". Page 91 Hope this helps...Chris ------------------ Land Soft--Kill Quiet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Galanti Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Not that there was a conclusion, but there's another thread about the IIC from a little while back: www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/005856.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mccooper Posted August 25, 2000 Author Share Posted August 25, 2000 "British and American Tanks of WWII" by P Chamberlain and C.Ellis is an old book and Chamberlain has made many a mistake including the IIC. It makes for a fun debate but until some one comes up with a pic I'll stick with the general consensus that no such beast existed. As for the Stuart (and Kangaroo version) I haven't done much research on this vehicle/family as I lost interest in the model - but I've never heard of a Stuart used as a kangaroo. If it did exist I'd like to know where they put the seats I'd also like to know why they even bothered with seats when they didn't install them in the Rams - and we (Cdn) owned the Rams unlike the Priests which were given back to the Yanks. I should have done a search for the other thread but I went on the fact that the vehicles are still in the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rollstoy Posted August 25, 2000 Share Posted August 25, 2000 Hey, I found a picture of a Firefly IIc! It must be an aerial recon one, though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Here's a pic of the Stuart "Kangaroo" (actually, a Stuart Recce) I found on a model website. I'm kind of on a crusade to have it explained how even a half squad could be carried in such a vehicle. They could certainly ride on the hull, but ought not to receive any protection benefits. What little I've been able to learn about this vehicle is that it was used for recce work, not battle transport. As for the Firefly IIC, Ben Galanti is right -- I never did get an answer about that. I'm not sure it didn't exist (I'd be surprised if it didn't), but the hybrid hull IC should have a higher representation IMO. ------------------ Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 people in this thread seem to confuse the T-8 and the Stuart Kangaroo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Well, the Kangaroo wouldn't mount the .50 cal on the turret ring obviously. But can you imagine five guys trying to mount or dismount from this thing? It's ludicrous. There's plenty of documentary evidence on how it was accomplished with the Ram, but I think the real confusion here is the label "Kangaroo". The Ram Kangaroo is a purpose-converted APC. That does not mean that any vehicle carrying the name Kangaroo is also an APC. As pointed out by someone else, any tank with its turret removed is by definition a Kangaroo. ------------------ Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teamski Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Hey Guys, I found this in the "World Encyclopedia of the Tank" by Christopher Chant, published in 1994: Page 210: "Most Fireflys were of the Sherman VC variety, but there were also Sherman 1C, IIC, IIIC, and IVC versions, and the the family proved highly important...." I'm sure that there were field mods of different models as tanks wore out or were destroyed. -Ski ------------------ "The Lieutenant brought his map out and the old woman pointed to the coastal town of Ravenoville........" [This message has been edited by Teamski (edited 08-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 I've confirmed that the Firefly IIC (based on the M4A1 hull) existed, but only with one photo. This, and two other photos, were found in the Squadron/Signal reference "D-Day to Berlin", with the photo of the IIC on pg 51 (8th Armoured Brigade). The latter two photos MIGHT also be of IIC's (pgs 60-61), but from these photographs' angles, could be showing IC Hybrids instead. [This message has been edited by Spook (edited 08-25-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bastables Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 I think you'll find the Sherman firefly VC was the only version to see combat on the western front. The Other fireflys should not be even in the game until CM3 in Italy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Huh????? Where do you get that from, Bastables? ------------------ Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook: I've confirmed that the Firefly IIC (based on the M4A1 hull) existed, but only with one photo. This, and two other photos, were found in the Squadron/Signal reference "D-Day to Berlin", with the photo of the IIC on pg 51 (8th Armoured Brigade). The latter two photos MIGHT also be of IIC's (pgs 60-61), but from these photographs' angles, could be showing IC Hybrids instead. [This message has been edited by Spook (edited 08-25-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Spook; I don't see any reference to the FF IIC. That is, if i'm looking at the same book you are. (D-day to berlin) By Terence Wise. Page 51 says it is a fire fly, but gives no reference to it being the IIC model. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't see a reference to any IIC model firefly in this whole book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 That's the same book, but for ALL Firefly pictures in that book, no distinction is made of the type, whether a VC, IIC, IC hybird, etc. In fact, in at least two of the pictures on the British armor section, Fireflys are simply identified as "Shermans." So it's to us to make the distinction by hull type and gun type. So I had to make the distinction by visual inspection. The Firefly on pg. 60 makes use of applique armor which breaks up the vehicle outline in that picture, but for that case, I'm more inclined to label that vehicle a IC Hybrid. The one on pg. 61 (with snow camo and side-mounted logs) can't be discerned right off as one or the other. But on the picture in pg. 51, in spite of the loosely-applied camo, I can state with much more certainty that that is an M4A1 hull (NOT the Hybrid hull) given the back-hull rounding & curvature. If so, then it is the Firefly IIC. [This message has been edited by Spook (edited 08-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 You've got them right, spook. Two of the three pics are IICs and one is a Hybrid IC. Good call. ------------------ Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kitty Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rollstoy: Hey, I found a picture of a Firefly IIc! It must be an aerial recon one, though! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> ROFL =) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook: But on the picture in pg. 51, in spite of the loosely-applied camo, I can state with much more certainty that that is an M4A1 hull (NOT the Hybrid hull) given the back-hull rounding & curvature. If so, then it is the Firefly IIC. [This message has been edited by Spook (edited 08-26-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If so, then PG 53, top right, is FF IIC with hedge cutters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbo Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook: So I had to make the distinction by visual inspection. The Firefly on pg. 60 makes use of applique armor which breaks up the vehicle outline in that picture, but for that case, I'm more inclined to label that vehicle a IC Hybrid. The one on pg. 61 (with snow camo and side-mounted logs) can't be discerned right off as one or the other. But on the picture in pg. 51, in spite of the loosely-applied camo, I can state with much more certainty that that is an M4A1 hull (NOT the Hybrid hull) given the back-hull rounding & curvature. If so, then it is the Firefly IIC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Any change that you (or anyone else with the book) could scan and post the IIC photos? I believe it is generally recognized today that during the war only the IC, IC Hybrid and VC were built. The IVC was a one off when the US Army played around with the possibility of using the M4A3 for Firefly conversions to the US Army and the IICs are postwar museum mixups (like the Grizzly version) or one-off experiments. If there really is solid pictoral proof of the IIC in operation in WWII, I think it will ruffle a few feathers Claus B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 I couldn't get a scan until later next week, as I don't have a scanner (and somebody's gotta instruct me how to "attach" a picture, because I've never done that on forums). It seems that DEF & F. Babra have also got the same reference I'm citing. Are either of you guys able to scan & "post" in the interim? PS to DEF: Pg. 53's picture is of a Firefly VC, apparent by the sharp-edged hull lines. This is different from the hull of the Firefly on pg. 51, which is asserted to be the IIC (M4A1 hull). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 I have a scanner. I'll post it here later tonite for all to grognad over. ------------------ The counter-revolution, people smilling through their tears. Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spook Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Thanks, DEF. Up 'til now, I didn't realize that the Firefly IIC was made up to be a hen's-teeth issue in its field usage. The B&W photo will show just enough camoflauge (foilage) attached to keep the issue contentious for some. But after repeated study of the hull lines, my own assertion of the tank being a IIC still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbo Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spook: Thanks, DEF. Up 'til now, I didn't realize that the Firefly IIC was made up to be a hen's-teeth issue in its field usage. The B&W photo will show just enough camoflauge (foilage) attached to keep the issue contentious for some. But after repeated study of the hull lines, my own assertion of the tank being a IIC still stands.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Believe me, in the tank nut crowd, this could be like pissing in the punch bowl Claus B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 I tried to scan the pics but when I attempt to reduce them to a size useable here they turn all grainy. We'll have to wait for Def. ------------------ Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DEF BUNGIS Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 Seems like the only way to get a PIC on here is by using UBB code. That requires the PIC to be linked into the forum from a URL. Example http://defbungis.com/.jpg Since all I have is a .jpg image, I can't get it on the forum. I can E-MAIL the PIC to someone who can link it to the forum. It is good quality. Size - 56K ------------------ The counter-revolution, people smilling through their tears. Who can give them back their lives, and all those wasted years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted August 26, 2000 Share Posted August 26, 2000 DEF BUNGIS, email it to me and it will be up for everyone to see in no time hofbauer@gmx.li Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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