Miniature Wargaming.....Dead?

[The Oak]

I'm not sure if this was discussed before, but here goes: I have been an avid micro armor (modern and WW 2) collector and gamer (3,000+ models) for the last 16 years. I also spent my childhood growing up with games like Panzerblitz and Squad Leader. Recent events have made me re-evaluate miniature gaming. First was the release of Steel Panthers. Then Avalon Hill went belly up, and now CM has raised the bar several notches. Many gamers are busy people who don't have finances spend hundreds of dollars on micro armor, as well as the time to paint them. It's also difficult for people to get together for a game, whereas on a computer you can play whenever two people hundreds or even thousands of miles away can find a spare hour or two. It seems the only advantages that miniature gaming still has is the social contact and the enjoyment of collecting the miniatures. With the advance of computer technology and software over the next few years, I can forsee CM #6, 7, or 8 at 10 times the scale; with the ability to fight the entire Ardennes Offensive at corps division level, yet still have the ability to watch your orders carried out by individual tanks and platoons if you'd like. The more I play CM the more I'm amazed at its attention to detail. I sometimes used to play solitare micro armor battles before, however that seems like a thing of the past now. Is anyone else a big miniatures collector/gamer? If so, what are your thoughts on this issue? Is miniatures gaming dead (or at least on the way out)?

[Guest Mike the bike]

I don't see any chance of miniatures dying this side of the next century.

1/ I find it more interesting interacting with an opponent over a table top than a computer

2/ Not all wargamers have computers, and the capital costs of setting up for computer gaming are quite expensive, at least it is in this part of the world

3/ The quality of 15mm WW2 miniatures is excellent these days

4/ Some people like to paint toy soldiers - then they want to do things with them!

5/ CM and its likely derivatives cover only a SMALL part of historical miniatures gaming.

[Bimmer]

I don't think its dead, but it certainly has been supplanted as the primary form of open-form wargaming by computer-based games. I still play (skirmish level, WWII 20/25mm, using Buck Surdu's BAPS or more recently rules that I wrote myself) and I enjoy the aspects you mentioned - social activity, painting and collecting miniatures, etc. Computer games just mean I can spend much more time wargaming. No more waiting months to get a group together - just load it up and go. But if I can actually get a tabletop game together, I'll play miniatures over a computer game any day.

[GIJim]

I agree that minatures are not dead. I would ratehr play a nicely set up minatures game any day. In computer wargames you certainly don't get the social interaction you do by sitting around a big table with your friends drinking beers and pushing lead.

Also, it takes a month or two to resolve these pbm games. With minatures you finish in one evening, or maybe over two weekends when we have regiment clashes.

Just my two cents.

[Sgt Steiner]

Hi all

Miniature Wargaming is most certainly not dead (not here in UK at least), Computer Wargming is simply another outlet for gamers (and if anything has reduced Board Wargaming to a shadow of its former self).

Personally I am happy to play a Wargame on PC, Tabletop or Board but I do agree PC and in particular Pbem has garnered me a lot more opponnents and an International dimension to Wargaming.

Hard to beat the tactile feel of Miniatures and the thrill of physically rolling little plastic cubes with number on

Cheers

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Sgt Steiner

Belfast

NI UK

[Guest Napoleon1944]

Miniature wargaming is true 3-D gaming. We are currently playing France 1940 with Matilda tanks wreaking havoc on a German column. There is a lot more flexibility in miniature gaming but the computer makes a better simulation.

[Sgt CDAT]

I to have also invested a few $1000's in micro armor and many hours, but do not have the time or the interest from others in my area to be able to get a game together but by no means will I pass on a chance to play a good game of tank charts. the times that I was able to get games in while I was in the army where some of the best times that I had with my friends. CM just helps to fill the gap!

[The Oak]

It has been the same with me: I have thousands of pieces of micro armor in my basement collecting dust. It's near impossible to gather everyone together for a several hour panzerfest. It's hard to console myself when I spent thousands of dollars, as well as countless hours painting the vehicles and constructing elaborate terrain. Even the best of rules can't do the to hit/damage calculations like a computer can. I only wish there was a table top wargaming computer assist program that could quickly calculate to hit/damage using a point and click interface. (and perhaps an AI that could maneuver an enemy on generic terrain for solitaire play). That would perhaps breathe new life into miniature gaming. I did have one question: I have no real experience in computer programming, however I'd like to know what software developers use to create computer games. If someone could point me in the right direction in this regard, perhaps I will develop a tabletop gaming program myself. Any info would be appreciated.

[dalem]

Dead? No way. I just got into it 2 years ago and am buying more and more lead.

Check www.provide.net/~dalem and click the 'some pics' link to see some evidence.

The page isn't 100% ready yet but will be soon.

-dale

[This message has been edited by dalem (edited 11-15-2000).]

[Guest Scott Clinton]

Speaking as a long time miniatures wargamer (over thirty years) I can say that miniatures wargaming is for all intense and purposes, dead. Especially if you area talking about historical miniatures.

As PC wargames continue to improve (especially in graphics) miniatures will become less and less attractive to the short attention span of youth. When is the last time any of you guys went to a miniatures wargame convention? What was the average age of the people there?

I can tell you one thing WHEN they even have a minatures wargame convention here in North Texas (once a year if I am lucky) the guys there are all getting older and older and the few young folks there are all playing Robotech or fantasy/scifi.

Sure a few people will always play miniatures wargames, but then you still have people in Penn. and Ohio driving around in horse and buggies too (Amish wargamers?!?)

It’s dead guys; you just don’t want to admit it.

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 11-15-2000).]

[Cyrano]

Although much depends here on definition, Mssr. Clinton is correct, methinks.

My own wargaming (miniatures only, never much loved the chits) goes back 20 years now to days spent learning a homebrew set of 25mm Nappy rules in the basement of a local game store. The guys I learned from were many years older and largely a big bunch of cops, attorneys, and other people with real lives. These guys are still there (the store still has a Nappy campaign...wonder of wonders) but the kids no longer gather to gawk at the battallions of 25's. They've got the latest mecho-doomslaher-kinslayer of fate on their team (purchased for $35 American) and they want nothing more than to push the unpainted freak at the best friends, apparently for the sole purpose of then smack-talking them...(O.K., the smack talk ain't so new )

Me personally, once I can play CM on my LAN, you couldn't PAY me to keep my WWII microarmour (although I am planning on having a last huzzah for it in my basement). I will not miss the endless set up, the LOS quibbles, the sense that had I had ONE MORE FREAKING INCH of flank space I coulda gotten in that last shot, and all the other downsides of lead-on-table gaming. It was a friend I will always remember well, but have few reservations about leaving behind.

Like CGW said of computer wargaming, miniatures wargaming as we know it is dead, CM (and things like it) done blowed it up.

Regards,

Cyrano

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"Watching others make friends, as a dog makes friends. I mark the manner of these canine courtesies and say, 'Thank God, here comes another enemy'" -- Rostand

[ianc]

Dalem, your site is very good! Loved the pics!

ianc

[MikEl]

I, too, have been wargaming in one form or another for over 20 years. Originally as a chit puncher and then as a micro armor gamer. Since I live on the East Coast I guess I'm luckier than many. Within easy driving distance of my home are at least three miniature gaming conventions every year. There are no Warhammer or Fantasy games, just historical gaming. There are also no parking spots. Each of these conventions takes over a major resort or convention center and packs em in for three days. Gamers run the gamut in age and background, and HMGS (Historical Miniature Gaming Society) takes great pains to encourage kids. All in all I am more encouraged by the health of miniature gaming than I am in the health (CM not withstanding) of electronic wargaming. How many good computer titles are there, and outside a small circle of friends how many people do you know that play them?

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I have several hundred mini's and I love them, but I'll tell you why I think its dead. Look at how little GHQ and the various companies have come out with in the last couple of years. Next to nothing. Once they drain their warehouses, that'll probably be it. I, for one, will miss it, but thank heaven for games like CM to take its place.

[Trooper]

It seems that I would be one of the 'younger' crowd at this. I've only been playing miniatures about 7 years.

Got my interest piqued watching a game of 'Epic' from Games Workshop. Got -really- into it by playing Harpoon, then Combined Arms. Admittedly, in Ireland, I've had to move to GW games in order to find many players, but I think that's just a cultural difference: Historical wargaming never was much of a passtime at home.

However, here in California, I've played as many Historical wargames as I have 40K. The amount of emails I'm getting from my website is such that there's still a strong and active Harpoon community.

What computer gaming cannot, to my mind, replace is the concept of a group of the lads standing around the gaming table, beer next to the dice, pizza in hand, having a good laugh.

NTM

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The difference between infantrymen and cavalrymen is that cavalrymen get to die faster, for we ride into battle!

[Crank_GS]

Interesting timing on this topic, gents, as I consider the fate of all of my tons of Advanced Squad Leader stuff.

I have been playing wargames for 20 years also. Cut my teeth on Avalon Hill. I had pretty much narrowed my gaming down to some ASL, although I played many battles of MBT (remember that?) with a friend who had less time than I. I have many fond memories of it all. Memories I say because it is a memory since I have had the time to even set up a small one - forget about playing it! As mentioned earlier, I will not miss the LOS or rules squabbles, or the 15 minuted spent re-organizing after toppling a stack of 15 counters in one hex. For years I have longed for computer ASL type war gaming - and now I have it. Yes, the face to face is nice, but hot seating would be just as enjoyable, and we can still drink beer over a game. The best part, is that we can start and finish a huge game in one sitting. I can also play numerous scenarios in a few sittings when all I will get is the odd hour here or there.

As one who never really got much FTF playing, it is pretty dead for me. All that is left is to determine what will become of all my ASL stuff. The maps and scenarios I will definitely keep, as well as the Rule Book(s). The counters, and boxes, I will get rid of. In fact, I may just color copy the map boards and dump them too. I need the space...

[The Oak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Scott Clinton:

As PC wargames continue to improve (especially in graphics) miniatures will become less and less attractive to the short attention span of youth. When is the last time any of you guys went to a miniatures wargame convention? What was the average age of the people there?

It’s dead guys; you just don’t want to admit it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

_____________________________________________

That's what I'm afraid of....it's on the way out. New recruits to miniature historical wargaming are few and far between. I can understand that a parent would rather drop $50 on a computer game (if they already have a computer) rather than $200 to get started in micro armor. Look at the options/attention to detail/eye candy of CM.....imagine how good it wil be in 5 years? Most kids don't have the patientce to paint 200+ micro armor vehicles anyways.

I finally got CM looking perfect with numerous mods. The other day I was moving a WSS Panther company (w/infantry riders) towards the front on a rainy day. I had to "rewind" and watch the company drive through one of Magua's villages about 10 times, it looked so incredible (and sounded it too w/ the Panther sound mod), whereas it takes me countless hours to set up a wargame that would be visually impressive.

I often (try to) set up micro armor wargames after hours at my Army national guard unit on weekends. It takes hours to even set up, and then it's hard to find people who are interested (and this is in an armor unit)! I've had to get creative and develop my own eye candy (like explosions, fire, realistic terrain, etc.) I have also tried to streamline the game to make it quicker to set up and play (I finally went to a 1:5 scale). I developed simple and fast rules similar to Panzerblitz in order to speed up the game and avoid complicated rule arguments (most part-time gamers won't take the time to read a 30 page rule book anyways). All this could be done by a computer in a fraction of a time. I would be better off buying a laptop and bringing CM to my drills.

The only thing miniatures has over computer games is that you can physically touch your units. In regards to social contact: You meet people from all over the world (albeit not face to face) as a result of on-line computer games. You also don't have those 30 minute arguments about line of sight, or dice falling off the table and landing a perfect roll. Board gaming is probably a lot worse off than miniature gaming: why else did AH go belly up? Panzerblitz is now a collector's item.

[The Oak]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Crank_GS:

Yes, the face to face is nice, but hot seating would be just as enjoyable, and we can still drink beer over a game. The best part, is that we can start and finish a huge game in one sitting. I can also play numerous scenarios in a few sittings when all I will get is the odd hour here or there.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

_____________________________________________

This is quite true. You could even get 4-6 friends to play (with each taking a different platoon or company) CM by hotseating at someone's house. You could then enjoy pizza and beer watching the combat action on a 21" monitor. You can have just as much enjoyment rewinding and watching "near misses" or "good hits." Laptops are getting good enough where you can even take the action on the road. I can't even imagine the level of detail in a few years........

[MikeO]

Glad this subject was brought up as I've been mini gaming for the last 25 years. For me the great pull of CM was that whilst most historical computer wargames up to now looked like board wargame conversions this one looked a mini game. All those things like 'WE-GO', 3D LOS and scaled down troop stands are familiar as hell to us toy soldier freaks. Hell, with CM you can even paint your tanks, figures and scenery any way you like

I go to three different miniature gaming conventions each year here in London and am pleased to report that shows such as 'Salute' are ALWAYS packed out. Some would say they are too overcrowded - trying to get near the trade stands can be sheer bloody murder (and yep, its true. There are still a few diehards who bravely resist the advance of deodorant product science...) Plenty of youth in evidence too - and even (shock, horror) a fair number of female gamers and traders.

Perhaps its just because we Brits are a nation of 'anoraks'??

[MikeO]

Forgot to mention another reason why mini games still hold their appeal. If you are into WW2 NW Europe/Russian Front, modern wars or the ACW then chances are you will find a few excellent historical computer wargames. How many (decent) computer wargames deal with the Spanish and Russian Civil Wars or 12th Century Samurai (my favourite periods)?

[Guest AlfieE]

Nice to see that the British are making our presence felt in the discussion here. T

his is a topic I've been thinking about for a while. As a 20mm WWII gamer I'm very fond of my 'little men' that I've lovingly painted. But the problem has always been finding an opponent. I've recently moved to London, where there are clubs, but the hassle of shunting the men and scenery about, getting a game set up (or packed away) and then the inevitable wrangling over rule intepretations kind of makes PC wargaming preferable.

With the fact that CM is an excellent game, especially with the mods., I've found that my tabletop antics have all but ceased. I think that there's a certain antagonism to PC wargaming over here if the magazine 'Wargames Illustrated' or the Society of Twentieth Century Wargamer's 'Journal' is anything to go by. Shame because, in their own way, they have a lot going for them.

But that's not to say that I don't enjoy painting and modelling, however. Now where did I put those 1/35 Tamiya British Infantry men on patrol?

Cya - AlfieE

[The Oak]

I think miniature wargaming is a lot more popular over in the UK. Didn't some guy in the UK even re-create Kursk using "Spearhead" and micro armor last year (a week long event)?

BTW: Is anyone from Germany on this site? If so, is it true your country is going to allow women in combat positions? Are we going to finally see real "pink panzers?" (I know pink was the piping color for the panzer arm).

[Guest Mike the bike]

I think Americans have a completely different situation to some other countries.

I was recently in Oklahoma City for 2 weeks, then S. rancisco for a couple of days. In Ok there are about 40 or 50 figure gamers of allvarietites I think - that's for a city of 1 million people.

Here in Wellington New Zealand we have 2 clubs EACH that size, plus 2 smaller clubs of mainly fantasy gamers for a population of about 350,000 - so approximately 6 times teh number of historical figure gamers per head of population.

The same is true in a few other places in NZ - Christchurch has 1 major club and several "organised groups" for historical gaming - maybe 120 people for 400,000, Auckland is a bit less - maybe 150 people in clubs for a million pop'n (vaguely historical types and not includign any specialist fantasy/GW clubs).

It seems to be the same in the UK, South Africa and Aussie too - many, many more gamers per head of pop'n than in the US.

So if you miss historical gaming and want to get plenty of opposition at regular meetings, I suggest you 'Merkins all emigrate!!

[Fellonmyhead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MikeO:

Forgot to mention another reason why mini games still hold their appeal. If you are into WW2 NW Europe/Russian Front, modern wars or the ACW then chances are you will find a few excellent historical computer wargames. How many (decent) computer wargames deal with the Spanish and Russian Civil Wars or 12th Century Samurai (my favourite periods)? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps this is where things will move on to. Perhaps BTS should consider utilising the same engine used for this (undisputably) excellent simulation and apply it to other wargaming genres?

Or perhaps there just isn't enough profit in it?

Any thoughts?

[Fellonmyhead]

Oh, forgot to say that as regards the miniatures gaming issue:

1. There have been other attempts to duplicate miniatures gaming, but none can hold a candle to this one.

2. Miniatures gaming is generally not restricted in the same way this software is, which can of course be both advantageous and disadvantageous.

3. For those of you who feel miniatures gaming is too time-consuming, try a set of rules such as the free Red Poppy White Feather skirmish rules (for WW2) at the following link;

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Alley/2541/index.html

4. Thanks for reminding me; must sort out painting those WW2 20mm upstairs which have been gathering dust all Summer!

Each to their own; I find PC gaming gives me a sore behind from sitting all the time!

I enjoy both types of game, but have not indulged in the miniatures side of things for just over a year. But I will, soon.

Fellonmyhead

Good thing I wore a helmet.