Panther turret weak point

[Runyan99]

Oftentimes I can kill a Panther with a frontal shot in the turret. It says "turret penetration at weak point". How common is this, and what feature of the Panther does this model?

[Guest KwazyDog]

Id hazard a guess Runyan and say that what you are probably hitting is the 'shot trap' which was a design fault in early Panthers.

What happened is that round would often his the underside of the mantlet, and instead of bouncing away from the tank would often bounce down and through the thinner top armour. This was fixed on later models of the Panther.

Dan

[Guest Madmatt]

It could certainly be the shot trap but I believe that in the game a Weak Point means a shot through a vision block, hatch, weld joint etc. Anywhere, basicaly, where the armor is a little thinner or more brittle than normal. Those type of hits are somewhat rare but just like in real life, they can happen.

Madmatt

[Wayne]

I have in my CM game file a self designed scenario with tanks alone, German vs. British. On the British side I have one Wolverine and on the German side there are two Panthers, among other tanks for both sides. The two Panthers happen to encounter the Wolverine and in the ensueing action the Wolverine manages to take out both Panthers in consecutive turns with frontal shots. In both kills of the Panther the kill report says that a weak point in the Panther's armor is the cause. This happens in a matter of less than two minutes. I don't think I've seen a luckier Wolverine crew.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Guest KwazyDog]

I guess the question really is wether Charles coded CM to display a 'weak point' penetration when the shot trap is hit in CM. I seem to recall from a conversation with him some time back that he did but it was a long time ago so I could be wrong.

[Guest Madmatt]

Yeah, I am not sure either. If it was a penetration due to the Shot Trap the round would actually penetrate the upper deck and not the turret though. That is caused by the incoming shell being deflected downward by the shape and angle of the gun mantle.

Hmmm....Have to wait until Charles wakes up from his food coma for the real verdict.

Also, which Panther model were you guys engaging as the late model G doesn't suffer from the shot trap.

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 11-24-2000).]

[Echo]

I'm sure thats the case. I don't recall ever seeing an "upper deck penetration" displayed before.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Echo:

I'm sure thats the case. I don't recall ever seeing an "upper deck penetration" displayed before. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I've never seen one either except from artillery. It's made me wonder at times if the shot trap model is working properly. It's hard to tell.

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[Wayne]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt:

Yeah, I am not sure either. If it was a penetration due to the Shot Trap the round would actually penetrate the upper deck and not the turret though. That is caused by the incoming shell being deflected downward by the shape and angle of the gun mantle.

Hmmm....Have to wait until Charles wakes up from his food coma for the real verdict.

Also, which Panther model were you guys engaging as the late model G doesn't suffer from the shot trap.

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 11-24-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure mine was the early model.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[Simon Fox]

Geez what a couple of dud employees Captain Madbutt (note the restraint) and the ScurvyDog, 50 lashes you lubbers.

It was indicated to me some time ago by persons of greater knowledge than these two that the shot trap of the early Panther is modelled by increasing the chance of a weak point hit for that vehicle. For later vehicles the chance is reduced but it still exists, as it does for all tanks.

[Guest Madmatt]

DOH!

Blackjack_MadMatt

[Guest KwazyDog]

Hehe, well I thought so!

Dan

[PzKpfw 1]

I don't know about the programmed 'weak point's but the Panther Turret front armor & mantlet, realy didn't have any weak points, per se, what it did have was an area of vulnerability, where it could be penetrated by an lucky hit.

This was the small flat surface of the turret face below the mantlet, which though an extremely small target was the weakest area of protection on the turret front as 76mm APCBC could penetrate it upto 700m & 500m by 85mm APC-T.

Regards, John Waters

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"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 11-24-2000).]

[Ari Maenpaa]

One look at a picture of the Panther and it becomes obvious that the curved gun mantlet virtually covers all the turret front. From the great "Some Illuminating Facts About The Tiger Tank"-thread I recall that it's not simple to judge exactly how much the mantlet boosts the armor protection, but I believe that in Panther's case it should be more than the current 93,5mm at 11 degrees (0,85 * 110mm).

According to Jentz’s Panther book Sherman76 could penetrate Panther frontally as follows:

Frontal turret up to 700ms

Mantlet up to 100ms

Glacis up to 0ms

Nose up to 0ms

In CM 1.05 it seems (basing on the given values in the game) that Sherman76 with normal AP-shots can penetrate Panther’s frontal turret up to 1200 - 1500m range.

Of course this mantlet boost applies to many other tanks too, but Sherman's mantlet, for instance, doesn't cover as much of turret's front area as Panther's does.

Ari

[PzKpfw 1]

To add; in the first set of US live fire tests vs the Panther conducted on July 12, 1944 by the 1st Army, 76mm APCBC was able to defeat the turret front (area of impact I described last post) at 200yrds.

But 76mm APCBC failed vs the mantlet at 200yrds when the rounds hit the rounded oblique parts. A partial penetration and a complete penetration were achieved when the mantlet was hit square on. So as we see a defeat of the front turret at '700m' was a very questionable estimation that was dependant on the area of impact Ie, the small flat surfaces of the turret face, below and to the sides of the mantlet.

The Germans also estimated that 76mm APCBC could defeat the Panther's side hull up to 2800m & side turret at 3500m, yet combat reports from the US 2nd Armored Div in 1945 reported the repeated failure of 76mm APCBC vs the Panther's side armor at ranges from 800 - 1600yrds, with a few penetrations achieved @ 500 & 1200yrds.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 11-24-2000).]

[Bastables]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

I don't know about the programmed 'weak point's but the Panther Turret front armor & mantlet, realy didn't have any weak points, per se, what it did have was an area of vulnerability, where it could be penetrated by an lucky hit.

This was the small flat surface of the turret face below the mantlet, which though an extremely small target was the weakest area of protection on the turret front as 76mm APCBC could penetrate it upto 700m & 500m by 85mm APC-T.

Regards, John Waters

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem is as I understand it, CM cannot model rounded surfaces and therefore the entire mantlet or turret front is set back at 10 degs slope meaning that the entire turret front gives the equivalent of around 121mm of armour protection at 0 degrees. In a replay of the Tiger mantlet/turret front your going to have to see if armour ‘strong points’ can be inserted into the Panthers turret front to bring about the equivalence of a rounded mantlet.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

In CM 1.05 it seems (basing on the given values in the game) that Sherman76 with normal AP-shots can penetrate Panther’s frontal turret up to 1200 - 1500m range.

Ari<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might want to look at those values again. According to my 1.05 CM the Panther's Front turret is 110mm thick angled at 11^ and the 76 penetrates 112mm at 500 meters and 101mm at 1000 meters at 0^ so there is no way your going to get a penetration at over 700 meters unless you luck out with a weak point penetration.

I remember Fionn making a post a while back where he says he considers the 76 a good bet against the Panther frontally only out to 500 meters when playing CM. I once set up a test range with Panthers with no ammo against M10s at 700 meters exactly. The large majority of the 76's hits shattered or otherwise failed to penetrate. I would say only 1 in 10 or so got through. It probably would be more than that if the low quality American ammo wasn't so prone to shattering.

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 11-25-2000).]

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables:

The problem is as I understand it, CM cannot model rounded surfaces and therefore the entire mantlet or turret front is set back at 10 degs slope meaning that the entire turret front gives the equivalent of around 121mm of armour protection at 0 degrees.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know what the formula is, but there is not a direct 1-1 correlation between degrees of slope and equivalent extra armor thickness at 0^. If the Panther turret had an equivalent of 121mm of armor at 0^ the 76 would only be able to penetrate it out to 100m (the 76 will penetrate 121mm at 0^ exactly at 100m). I think the 110mm at 11^ is equivalent to only about 111 or 112 at 0^. Otherwise I think your point is on the mark.

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[This message has been edited by Vanir (edited 11-25-2000).]

[Ari Maenpaa]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir:

You might want to look at those values again. According to my 1.05 CM the Panther's Front turret is 110mm thick angled at 11^ and the 76 penetrates 112mm at 500 meters and 101mm at 1000 meters at 0^ so there is no way your going to get a penetration at over 700 meters unless you luck out with a weak point penetration.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But don't you forget that Panther's 110mm armor is rated at 85% thus making the effective armor rating 93,5mm at 11^ (This according to the old thread where Charles discussed about the Hetzer's effective armor which is also rated at 85% quality.)?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vanir:

I think the 110mm at 11^ is equivalent to only about 111 or 112 at 0^.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So 93,5mm at 11^ would be something like 95mm at 0^?

US76mm can penetrate 93mm at 0^ up to 2000ms. This way it seems that Sherman76 can very possibly penetrate Panther's front turret up to 1500ms at least.

Ari

[This message has been edited by Ari Maenpaa (edited 11-25-2000).]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bastables:

The problem is as I understand it, CM cannot model rounded surfaces and therefore the entire mantlet or turret front is set back at 10 degs slope meaning that the entire turret front gives the equivalent of around 121mm of armour protection at 0 degrees. In a replay of the Tiger mantlet/turret front your going to have to see if armour ‘strong points’ can be inserted into the Panthers turret front to bring about the equivalence of a rounded mantlet.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree Bast, I was just commenting on the actual LF results with 76mm APCBC. Speaking of that Steve, if your reading can we get your feedback concerning an 'strong point' value on the Panther's mantlet, like we did with the Tiger E mantlet to simulate the effects of the rounded oblique areas of the Panthers mantlet on incomeing rounds etc.

Regards, John Waters

------------------

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the

German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. February 1945.

[Ari Maenpaa]

I made a quick test with CM's scenario editor and found out that on flat ground against hull downed Panther a Sherman76 gets

kill:OK up to 917ms

and

kill:LOW up to 1155ms.

Beyond that it gets kill:NONE and can penetrate Panther's front turret only via weak points, I guess.

So my original guesstimation for US76mm's changes to penetrate Panther's front turret with standard APs at 1500ms seems to be far too optimistic.

Still there seems to be quite a gap between data given in Jentz's "Germany's Panther Tank" and CM. Even if we give them both some "room".

Ari

[This message has been edited by Ari Maenpaa (edited 11-25-2000).]

[Bastables]

Or just up the quality from 85%. The problem is I think that the armour quality is linked to the percentage to weak spots on a given veh, although I'm not certain of this.

[Vanir]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ari Maenpaa:

But don't you forget that Panther's 110mm armor is rated at 85% thus making the effective armor rating 93,5mm at 11^ (This according to the old thread where Charles discussed about the Hetzer's effective armor which is also rated at 85% qualitity.)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you can find that thread I would very much like to see it. It was my understanding that the % quality figure does not work that way. The 76's actual performace against the Panther seems to bear this out. I would love to see an official explanation.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I made a quick test with CM's scenario editor and found out that on flat ground against hull downed Panther a Sherman76 gets

kill:OK up to 917ms

and

kill:LOW up to 1155ms.

Still there seems to be quite a gap between data given in Jentz's "Germany's Panther Tank" and CM. Even if we give them both some "room".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not really. If there is a problem with CM in this area it is in the kill probabilities it gives you when you target, not the actual armor performance. The probabilities you mentioned above that CM gave you are wildly optimistic and not at all in line with actual chance of kill. You can test this yourself. Set up your Panthers with no ammo at 800 yards from some M10s and see what happens. I'm quite sure you will find your Panthers to be nearly invulnerable despite the "OK" kill chance it gives you. The only way you will get a penetration is on a weak point hit or a lower hull, and lower hull hits are very rare for some reason.

But you have to actually let them shoot. Don't trust the kill chance it gives you. It lies like a dog

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You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt

[argie]

Vanir,

Ari is right. That explanation was given by Charles in some thread about the Hetzer which eludes me every time I search it

I know that thread was cited in another thread about the same issue which Tanaka started a while ago, but I'm to lazy to did a search...

100mm at 85%=85mm

Ariel

(in lazy and non scientifical mood)

[Vanir]

Hmmm... Well I don't know what to say except that it really doesn't seem to work that way in the game even if Charles said it does. As Ari stated, if it did work that way the 76 would be able to penetrate the Panther turret at 1500-2000 meters when in fact it cannot penetrate over 700.

The armor quality thing is one of the few things in CM that I really have no idea how it works, or even if it does work. I've basically started ignoring it since as far as I can tell it doesn't do anything at all.

------------------

You mean my Java coded Real Time Bar Fight Simulator Madmatt Mission: Beyond BiteMe ISN'T going to be published?!?

Madmatt