danielh Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 I've recently got the full CM-game, it's by far the best tactical sim i've ever played !! But still there are some topics which bring some disbelief into the game: - Armored transport vehicles are taken out by normal rifle-MG's -> Render them useless - The german-tank AI is bad. I had an Elite cew in a tiger, they used the coaxial two time for an enemy tank 100 m away, before shooting. On another occasion they needed 6 shots for an enemy tank 400 m away, in fact the enemy tank a cromwell drived into position and fired first, hitting me with the first shot, my tank was standing still and headed exactly to the position where the cromwell appeared.... It is known that the german optics were superior to the allied ones, and that an experienced crew needed 3 shots in average for tanks 1000 to 2000 m away standing still, at under 400 m the cannon could be fired right away, since trajectory was so flat then that a hit was almost sure. - The german tanks cannot cross Bocage, but all allieds can. That's another point which should be adressed. By far not all allied tanks were equipped with hedgehog equippment. (Compare a Tiger of 60 tons with a tiny Stuart, the Tiger would drive trough the bocage as if it would not be there for sure, whereas the Stuart couldn't cross at all). A good compromise would be that for instance tanks without hedgehog equipment can cross bocage only very, very slowly (2 turns) and maybe become bogged, whereas the ones with the equipment much faster (as actual in the game). - The armor: The Panther in CM is rated with 100 mm frontal turret armor. This value is only the half truth, because the gun manteling had another 110 mm. The same for the Tiger, which also had a 100 mm mantlet in addition to the 100 mm. The infantry-action is just unbelievable good !! Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> an Elite cew in a tiger, they used the coaxial two time for an enemy tank 100 m away, before shooting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Gunners very often let loose a burst with the co-ax for targeting, and while the loader is loading, the gun is depressing and the turret is rotating. There is no delay for actually getting the main gun's round on target because of this MG fire. It can only help. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> On another occasion they needed 6 shots for an enemy tank 400m away, in fact the enemy tank a cromwell drived into position and fired first, hitting me with the first shot, my tank was standing still and headed exactly to the position where the cromwell appeared....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Too many factors you don't mention. But, it appears that both your tank and the enemy tank were both moving. Trying to hit a moving tank while YOUR tank is moving is very hard at any range. Your tank was hit, this has some effect even if the tank is not damaged (imagine the morale effect if nothing else, it could tend to make the crew a little 'tense'). Other things not mentioned are crew status (morale, buttoned?), cover, concealment, etc. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>It is known that the german optics were superior to the allied ones, and that an experienced crew needed 3 shots in average for tanks 1000 to 2000 m away standing still, at under 400 m the cannon could be fired right away, since trajectory was so flat then that a hit was almost sure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> German optics should get no bonus at ranges < 1000m and very little bonus at ranges < 1500m You will almost never fire at anything over 1500m in CM. IMO, the bonus for German optics IS in the game accurately. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>- The german tanks cannot cross Bocage, but all allieds can. That's another point which should be addressed. By far not all allied tanks were equipped with hedgehog equippment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, but to address this about a half dozen new models would have to be added to the game. This is not going to happen. German tanks did not cross the bocage very often from what I have read. It was just too dangerous and the Germans could not afford to be so risky with their limited armor. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>(Compare a Tiger of 60 tons with a tiny Stuart, the Tiger would drive trough the bocage as if it would not be there for sure, whereas the Stuart couldn't cross at all).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> MANY Stuarts were fitted with 'Rhino' hedgerow devices. A Tiger I (IMHO) would most likely throw a track or get bogged trying to cross a heavy bocage. Tiger Is were prone to bogging and tossing tracks anyway. A Tiger I is one of the last tanks I would try to cross a bocage with actually (Panthers or PzIV would do much better IMO). <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> - The armor: The Panther in CM is rated with 100 mm frontal turret armor. This value is only the half truth, because the gun manteling had another 110 mm. The same for the Tiger, which also had a 100mm mantlet in addition to the 100 mm.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The data you quote I suspect is from the 'UNIT SUMMARY" window...the key word is "SUMMARY". That is, all the window is for to summarize the data. It IS broken down into more detail in the game itself but for interface reasons it is condenses for viewing by the player. ------------------ Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own. [This message has been edited by Scott Clinton (edited 07-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 12, 2000 Share Posted July 12, 2000 Hi Daniel, there have also been lengthy discussions on German optics, and probably some of the other issues you mention (certainly for Bocage). Try a search on this, and you will find something (or maybe if Guachi feels generous he can point you). Andreas (Searchonaut apprentice) ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
guachi Posted July 13, 2000 Share Posted July 13, 2000 No real need to search. Scott did a great job nailing every reason spot on. Of course, Scott was probably IN on some of those discussions himself. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielh Posted July 18, 2000 Author Share Posted July 18, 2000 Thank you guys for your replies ! I don't fully agree with the optics thing but it's a nuissance. But during play of several scenarios now, me and others have found TWO really severe failings of the AI implementation of tank and anti-tank behaviour: - TARGET PRIORITY Chance Encounter; A Stug is placed in ambush position on the left side of the church across the road beneath the tree section, it is in perfect positon to overwatch the crossing and the road to the big light house, Ronsons are nearing the crossing and the road. (Everything moving in would be dead meat) Now, what happens, my Stug turns left to engage an already heavy scattered Inf-Squad which is engaged by my own infantry platoon placed nearby, a Ronson comes to the crossing and kills the Stug !! I had to reload and place the Stug in a way that he had no LOS to the Inf-squad. In PBEM this spoils the whole game, and brings up a lot of anger about the wasted time, instead of fun !! The same thing in the mission with the Pershings, my Tigers where engaging fleeing Inf-squads being absolutely no thread. Consequently i had to bring my Tigers so near to the Pershings that they were the nearest target (and loosing 3 of them, we catched all the Pershings but only after several reloadings..). There should be an order to tell the tank or anti-tank target priority, inf. or tanks or both. (This behaviour doesn't improve with experience, i have encountered it many, many times in different scenarios.) - Boresight RANGE, aiming respectively Another stupid thing, which brings so much disbelief is the aiming and shooting at very close range 0 - 500 m. I had 3 Pz IV's standing in position, when a Stuart came in their LOS on open ground 230 m away stopping immediately, no other targets around, all Crews open, all three engage the M3 having the first shot and all three shots are falling short about 20 m !!!! The M3 then kills one of my Pz IV's therefore and comes away unscathed !!!! (Not in a billion years such a thing would happen) 250 m, that's boresight range, there is no possibility to miss, put your sight on it, bam it's gone. (Just overjump the "range" routine in the program when under around 500 m, the exact distance being dependant on the muzzle velo) My tanks had to rotate their turrets around 10 degrees, the M3 90 degrees, and he moved into my line of sight which is never very favourable, because the first shot is yours always. In a PBEM such things spoil everything. My PzIV-crews must have been heavily drunk because they had to point the sight to the ground in front of the M3 in fact to miss ! With muzzle velo of > 800 m/s the shell might drop some centimeters prior to hit the target ! (In Panzer Elite a quite accurate WWII-tank sim you can try it out !!) Targeting, shooting - Bazooka or Panzerschreck teams; they shoot on a target even when hitchance is zero (which means to be dead) having a much better hitchance if they would wait... On one occasion i tried to stalk an immobilized Ronson with a veteran panzerschreck-crew, sadly they had a LOS on it with zero percent hit chance and fired all ammo on it prior reaching the desired spot. The targeting problems also are heavily encountered with them, even at distances of under 20 m an elite crew is able to miss the target frequently (out of a house).... I also noticed that the computer opponent's panzerschreck or bazooka teams seem to be much more deadly and much, much more durable, they hit you frequently up to 200 m even while you move (Maybe it's an illusion, but i very very rarely had effective bazooka or Panzeschreck teams, they are either killed by the slightest firing on them or they miss the target all the time or inflict minor damage. A hollow charge penetrating the turret for instance is fatal, much more in fact than an armor piercing round... (A 100 mm hollowcharge hitting the 50 mm side plate of a turret IS ABSOLUTELY FATAL for the crew in the turret, which means no commander, no loader, no gunner and most probable ignition of some ready ammo in the turret !!) In my opinion the two topics (range and target priority) MUST be resolved (if there are really trajectory calculation- and sighting- algorithms in the game....) with a patch to allow the proper deployment of Anti-tank- and Tank-tactics, enhanced Bazooka- and Panzerschreck abilities also would be highly recommended, since it gives the infantry some danger against tanks. In many scenarios the one which has tanks a the end and even if it's only one wins most of the time.. (although a tank is really a threat, a good hidden and experienced bazooka- or panzerschreck- team is almost impossible to spot and will shoot only if a hit is highly probable, it's their main weapon and if experienced one might expect that they know how to handle it effectively..) Another (minor) point are routed enemy squads fleeing over open space targeted by many machinge guns and cannons from all directions, more often than not they may loose none or one member in one round, forcing you to spend wagonloads of ammunition on them. In real a squad of 12 in open country 20 - 200 m away running in crossfire would be a matter of splitseconds to wipe out !! That's it i can't find anything else wrong !! Everything else is ABSOLUTELY SUPERB !! Greets Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captitalistdoginchina Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Easy now fella's......real easy now. Practice deep breathing, in thru the nose....out thru the mouth. There ya go. CDIC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Danielh, please use the search function. Most of the guys here have, much as you do, a very good knowledge of WWII, and we have had these discussions for almost two years. All the issues you mention have been covered again and again. They are good points and the answer is somewhere among the 75000 posts about CM. Sten ------------------ Keep your whisky on the rocks and your tanks on the roll. [This message has been edited by Sten (edited 07-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Scott Clinton Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 Danielh: The search function really is your best bet, but I will briefly try to cover these from what I remember. These are what I REMEMBER for numerous other threads and are NOT necessarily my personal opinions. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>- TARGET PRIORITY<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Use the ambush command and use the hide command. But most importantly remember the 'mind set' of the game. You are not supposed to be omnipotent in CM. You give orders to your troops to position themselves overlooking an area...they will do so and THEN they will do what they were trained to do, fight. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Boresight RANGE, aiming respectively<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> **** happens. Its not that easy in a real life combat situation with both units moving and firing and real people spilling real blood all over the place. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Targeting, shooting<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> See "TARGET PRIORITY" above. These are basically the same issues with different units. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In real a squad of 12 in open country 20 - 200 m away running in crossfire would be a matter of splitseconds to wipe out !!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, it wouldn't. The terrain in CM is not a billiard table. Even 'Flat' terrain tiles are 25mx25m and are supposed to contain both small undulations and places for cover and concealment. I think you are too used to the die-quick infantry of another certain 'real-time' war game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielh Posted July 18, 2000 Author Share Posted July 18, 2000 Sten and Scott, thank you for your reply !! Ok i've done what Sten told me and searched the forum, and found some posts which bring some light to the topic (and a lot of other intersting stuff) but nowhere sufficiently explain the targeting/range/sighting/experience/tactics things really to the end (IMHO). What i learned is that everything relies on probability determined by the use of look-up tables (Good, that's the way i would do it too). Thus everythings relies on the proper "initial" values (which btw are also quite easy to alter). Now the experiences in the game with elite tankcrews and the word elite says it's all (Wittmann, Peiper and so fort), is far below their real achievements and used tactics, they can in fact only be rendered as a fresh recruits abilities in a fight. The errors are (Once again elite crews): - Concentration on minor threats (Going for that crew instead the tank 50 m beneath already targeting them) - Improper use of their weaponsystems (Use of Coax at close range, thus waisting precious time and warning the enemy (No the gun has not to be reloaded initially, he only has to aim (put the sight on the target) and hit the trigger) (< 500 m) (There's a superb story in this forum about a single lonely german Tiger tankcrew disabling 22 T-34 within 30 minutes, whereas 5 were disabled within around a minute, these men were absolute professionals which performed equal to Formula One Schumacher and his team or a Micheal Jordan for instance (Guess the hit probability throwing a basketball and hit from 10 m away for an untrained.....), error is not an option to them, they're trained to master their weaponssystem in every aspect and were absolutely destined to their faith, and thus could achieve results which were far beyond the average) - Improper tactics (The "Hunt action mode" mentioned by the poster of above story, generally deployed by german armor depending completely on situation and thus every second and ditch counts, should be in the game too of course), driving a preset course set by the "God-commander"(Player) or the relatively slow Hunt order can never come near this.. Obvious it's a matter of soft values that come in which are hard to break down to numbers exactly, but it can be done by trial and error. I played also Panzer Elite which seems well known in this forum, and there too you won't miss a target at 300 m moving in front of you (atleast with Zeiss Optics..) and stopping ahead of your gun (while you stand). In fact since this is a tactical game one should be punished in doing errors and not be awarded (Driving an M3 out of a hidden place into the sights of 3 Pz IV's is with deadly certainty a tactical error). So i glue to it, probability is done to the bad in this game in certain areas. To have some "miracles/dooms" very seldom is good and must be there, but it's far too much. And as far as i think, or i'm supposed, to use it as a tactical game to contend against others and not against the cube. Scott: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Use the ambush command and use the hide command. But most importantly remember the 'mind set' of the game. You are not supposed to be omnipotent in CM. You give orders to your troops to position themselves overlooking an area...they will do so and THEN they will do what they were trained to do, fight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> - I tried everything, ambush, open crew, buttoned crew, nothing helped but moving every other target out of sight... (In the german army this crew would have been court martialed by disobeying orders and being guilty to have killed a lot of their comrades by their failing). Fighting also has a lot to do with thinking, not necessarily during fighting there things must function almost unconcious, but be trained again and again, rethinked again and again, because error (reasons are unimportant results counts) is enemy number one.. If i would be in command of such a crew i would sent them back home or to some backline duties but NEVER let them command a tank ! <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> **** happens. Its not that easy in a real life combat situation with both units moving and firing and real people spilling real blood all over the place. [/]QUOTE - As i mentioned the M3 drove into my LOF and then stopped, my 3 units where on halt and no other fighting was going on, some other enemy tank-units had been disabled during prior rounds in the same region by the same unit and others. (The M3 thing is just a well examined and rude example but there were many more such miracles and dooms during several other battles) No, it wouldn't. The terrain in CM is not a billiard table. Even 'Flat' terrain tiles are 25mx25m and are supposed to contain both small undulations and places for cover and concealment. I think you are too used to the die-quick infantry of another certain 'real-time' war game... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "Open field" i think denotes what i have around my house flat grass terrain easily overwatched up to 500 m at same altitude. Moving individuals can easily be spotted and tracked..... Btw: Slopes in most part of france and germany are gentle and wide, i'm swiss and we have some rougher terrain but still there is enough open ground 25 x 25 m that can be overwatched easily... (Erwin Rommel in his WWI-Biography saw a whole enemy squad be wiped out by a single bullet, because they were marching in columns unwary of the enemy, moving in panic over open terrain in the battlezone (not trenches and bombcraters) is fatal) Cheers Daniel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In real a squad of 12 in open country 20 - 200 m away running in crossfire would be a matter of splitseconds to wipe out !!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The distance between 20 and 200 meters is quite a lot. I think you need to clarify. How far away was the squad in your personal experience, anyway? Just from my own personal real-life experience, 200 meters is quite a ways away. I've fired small caliber (.22 and others) at a calm, quiet rifle range at targets up to 200 and 300 yards away, and I was having trouble just getting the rounds on a target. Granted, it's not like I go out shooting a lot, but I don't think every German machine gunner had the accuracy of a Navy SEAL, either. Plus they're in a noisy, hostile, stressful environment trying to hit a moving target that's running, jumping, and diving all over the place, with a gun that has a much harder recoil than an old .22 rifle. And as Scott said, the target isn't totally exposed, either. IIRC, hundreds of rounds of ammunition were expended per casualty in WWII. -Andrew ------------------ Throw me a frickin' smiley people! [This message has been edited by Mirage2k (edited 07-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>- Armored transport vehicles are taken out by normal rifle-MG's -> Render them useless<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Were the vehicles "taken out", or were they just abandoned? A crew might abandon their vehicle if they came under heavy rifle fire. And remember that armored transports in WWII weren't very heavily armored. We're not talking Bradleys, here. They were basically trucks with some minimal armor to protect them from light small-arms fire. -Andrew ------------------ Throw me a frickin' smiley people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Mirage2k Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>In real a squad of 12 in open country 20 - 200 m away running in crossfire would be a matter of splitseconds to wipe out !!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The distance between 20 and 200 meters is quite a lot. I think you need to clarify. How far away was the squad in your personal experience, anyway? Just from my own personal real-life experience, 200 meters is quite a ways away. I've fired small caliber (.22 and others) at a calm, quiet rifle range at targets up to 200 and 300 yards away, and I was having trouble just getting the rounds on a target. Granted, it's not like I go out shooting a lot, but I don't think every German machine gunner had the accuracy of a Navy SEAL, either. Plus they're in a noisy, hostile, stressful environment trying to hit a moving target that's running, jumping, and diving all over the place. And as Scott said, the target isn't totally exposed, either. IIRC, hundreds of rounds of ammunition were expended per casualty in WWII. -Andrew ------------------ Throw me a frickin' smiley people! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanE Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danielh: - Armored transport vehicles are taken out by normal rifle-MG's -> Render them useless <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> There is another thread ongoing that shows other "things" may be knocking your vehicles out. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>- The german-tank AI is bad. I had an Elite cew in a tiger, they used the coaxial two time for an enemy tank 100 m away, before shooting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This has been mentioned already, but the firing of the coaxial causes no delay in the main gun firing. It helps set the target and it will keep the other TC buttoned which will reduce his visability. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>On another occasion they needed 6 shots for an enemy tank 400 m away... It is known that the german optics were superior to the allied ones, and that an experienced crew needed 3 shots in average for tanks 1000 to 2000 m away standing still, at under 400 m the cannon could be fired right away, since trajectory was so flat then that a hit was almost sure.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Averages mean little on an individual case. I am sure if you ran a test, that same Elite crew would get many more hits on the 1st and 2nd shot than misses. However, you never hear people complain when the first shot hits. Also, welcome aboard. ------------------ Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silencer Posted July 18, 2000 Share Posted July 18, 2000 quote: It is known that the german optics were superior to the allied ones, and that an experienced crew needed 3 shots in average for tanks 1000 to 2000 m away standing still, at under 400 m the cannon could be fired right away, since trajectory was so flat then that a hit was almost sure. I have played Panzer Elite extensively, And I can only adress the lack of the optics in CM. I played both sides, on max diff, and it was HARD!! But the germans defenitly gave an edge on +800 duals due to zooming and range finding. on to the optics: When you have an crack or elite crew, the 4'the shot on a static tank at 1500m is 99% sure to be a hit (from what i've read, the 3e shot is already +95%). I tested some sef made senarios, where i put a jumbo against tiger on a disance of approx 1800m. The hit percentage of each tanks where appox. the same, and more strange, it took an avarage of 5 to 6 shots to achieve a first hit. that's way to much on a static non moving tank, especially for a german tank another strange thing, when hit, normally you would assume the next round would hit again, as the gun is now 'locked on'. but no, anoter rounds fall short or long before hit again. And that the engagements in CM are often less then 1km is no reason to not include it. yesterday, I had a Dual of a panzer IV and a firefly at a range of 2000m (none of them hull down) guess who won? another battle was an archer versus a crack jagdpanzer, range 1500. the archer was on open ground, not hull down. the Archer had already fired 2 shots before the JP IV( was unbuttoned and in overwatch mode in some scattered trees,he wasn't firing at anything and was facing the right direction.)noticed him. Strange?? Could it be possible the AI cheats? the turret armour for the tiger: as seen on photos, the 120mm mantlet of the late tiger I covered almost the whole front of the 100mm turret. Still , when a 76mm gun AP shell fires from approx 500m and hit's the turret, always a penetration!!! has someone an explananation for this? I don't know the penetration capability of a 76mm, but it's never more than 140mm at 500m. Is the mantle really calculated? Shouldn't there be more non-penetrating hits then?? S. ps; For the rest, still an excellent game!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The CM Borg Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by danielh: I've recently got the full CM-game, it's by far the best tactical sim i've ever played !!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You have been assimilated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danielh Posted July 19, 2000 Author Share Posted July 19, 2000 Silencer, Very good post, i noticed the same thing today as i also made some tests. There seem to be bursts were one side hits and then again for some time nothing hits. I also noticed the huge impact of open or buttoned crew. When buttoned they couldn't engage the previous engaged enemy anymore from around 1800 m on. So a static defense position too far away won't be a good thing. In a TV-Interview of some russian and german tank crews about the battle of Pochorowka at Kursk (The biggest tank battle in history), a T-34 Commander told that he was crossing a railroad line (which was somewhat elevated above otherwise mostly plain ground), he was in open position and could glance a lighting and a cloud around 3 - 4 km away (His guessing) he took his glasses and examined the position it was an elephant firing in his direction, a second later his tanks body was hit killing his driver and injuring his MG-gunner. He also stated that the germans always tried to engage them over long distances to maximize their superiority and that they (the russians) rushed upon their positions at full possible speed to get a shorter distance shot, because they could not engage the enemy with the T-34 of that time over long distances (This however changed with the Josef Stalin tanks). I also once met a very old man, during a job (still very vital). It came out that he was a tank mechanic first and then to the end of the war a tanker himself. I asked him about the differences between russian and german tanks and their ability. He stated that the german tank cannons were superior and very accurat. He statet to hit a normal rilfe practice target with ease up to 500 - 600 m in the center section (they also had to calibrate the guns of the tanks occasionally). He stated that russian artillery was very acurrat and always anywhere, but that the tanks were inept in acuracy. He was caught in the summer offensive of 1944 and survived the horrible siberian camps. Greets Daniel [This message has been edited by danielh (edited 07-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silencer Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 quote" When buttoned they couldn't engage the previous engaged enemy anymore from around 1800 m on." yup, had this too serveral times. When hit by an allied or german tank, and the crew buttons up, they won't fire anymore against the oher tank, who is still firing away. those crews must have a very short term memory this is probably a bug, or at least needs some fixing. S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ari Maenpaa Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Silencer, what version of CM you are playing; 1.0, 1.01 or 1.02? At least Sten (one of the CM betatesters) has stated in another thread that Zeiss optics are already in. It just is not clear if he meant all available versions of the game. I'm yet to get my copy, but your critics brings to my mind some concern about the thin skinned german assault guns like Marder and Nashorn. Those aren't close combat vehicles and without properly modelled long range optics they may become pretty pointless warmachines. OK, maybe I shouldn't take part in these discussions before my copy arrives, but I just want to help to make CM even better game. If that is possible Ari Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanE Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silencer: When hit by an allied or german tank, and the crew buttons up, they won't fire anymore against the oher tank, who is still firing away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Was the crew "Shocked"? If so, then there is a delay in any action performed by that tank. ------------------ Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardinal Fang Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Howdy folks! The following links: http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/004572.html and http://www.battlefront.com/discuss/Forum1/HTML/001449.html are brought to you by the Search Council-"Remember, Before You Ask It, Search It!" If you do a search on optics you'll find more topics and more info although some of it is old. I hope this helps! This is unrelated but I want to mention it, I'm playing the user-created scenario Valhalla, I wanted to get more experience using larger formations before going to the historical scenarios and besides this one is fun!, and I have a brave M5 tank that has killed TWO Jagdpanthers! Both from the rear of course, one at 200 meters and the other at 22 meters. Yes, 22 meters. It was awesome using the 1 view and locked on the Stuart when it came over the rise to see the Jagdpanther on the reverse side facing AWAY from it. It still took 3 or 4 hits to kill it too. Cardinal Fang Nobody Expects The Spanish Inquisition! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 With respect to the two JagdPanthers getting killed by the M5. Could you see the after action meeting for the Germans? "Herr Leutnant, tell us about how your section was destroyed by the Imperialist American Swine!" "Jah, mein Kapitan. You see, I was in position, and then, zee (mumble-mumble-snort) came over the hill..." "Zee vaut! What did you say! I could not hear you!" "The hill. They, uh came over the hill you see..." "Leutnant, WHAT came over the hill! Was it a platoon of those new American Jacksons! Those new 90mm guns are quite impressive!" "Well, actually, it was an M5. Stuart." Silence. "Corporal, get out of mein sight!" Jeff P.S. Yes, I know my psuedo-German is attrocious. Let's just leave it at that, shall we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sten Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Jeff, LOL, but wouldn't that be grounds for summary execution? Sten Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sten: Jeff, LOL, but wouldn't that be grounds for summary execution? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nah - a special assignment as Minenhund on the East Front more likely. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KMHPaladin Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Jeff - come on over to the European Air War forum at Combatsim.com - we speak "Germglish" all the time! ------------------ KMHPaladin KHarkins@voicenet.com "We have the enemy surrounded. We are dug in and have overwhelming numbers. But enemy airpower is mauling us badly. We will have to withdraw." -- Japanese infantry commander, SITREP, Burma Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Carter Posted July 19, 2000 Share Posted July 19, 2000 Originally posted by danielh: [but still there are some topics which bring some disbelief into the game: - Armored transport vehicles are taken out by normal rifle-MG's -> Render them useless The most recent "Tales of the Gun" show on History Channel mentioned that BAR rifles were almost exclusively armed with AP bullets. The footage of the BAR chewing apart concrete building walls was pretty amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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