kump Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Too early to evaluate the financial outcome, but at least in the area of customer satisfaction of CM, it sure appears to be a resounding success. I've got nothing better to do while waiting for CM, so I browse this board alot. I'm stunned its not being hit by angry customers with bug reports, which is all too common these days. The business model BTS has adopted by avoiding the big publishers has really paid off for customers. CM did not get pushed out the door before it was ready, its a complete package that delivers what it promised and then some more. Its obvious (even from the Gold Demo) that CM was developed by a group of people who have a great interest in the subject matter and who are wargamers themselves. It shows in every aspect of CM. And they also had a wealth of talent to actually pull it off, delivering to a demanding group of wargamers who many must be in a state of shock that they got what they have always been wanting. Congrats BTS, and may your business model bring you the high financial rewards you rightly deserve. ------------------ Garry Kump Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Its obvious (even from the Gold Demo) that CM was developed by a group of people who have a great interest in the subject matter and who are wargamers themselves. [...] Congrats BTS, and may your business model bring you the high financial rewards you rightly deserve.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hear, hear! It seems that this "business model" is becoming more common for wargames. HPS is the first I know of (I may well be wrong) to use it, followed by Battlefront (representing BTS and others), and Shrapnel. IMHO, nothing could be cooler: no "suits", no "ship it by X-quarter or else" deadlines, no dumb-it-down mentality. Common wisdom says that grognards are a "marginal" market and that traditional business models can't make a profit from them. To this attitude, I snarl, raise my middle finger, and shout "So what, a**hole?! Think outside the f***ing box!" Companies like BTS are doing "end runs" with distribution through outlets like Battlefront. We wargamers have always been able to find sources for our games, even in the retail world - the new electronic frontier just makes a wider variety of fine games more easily available. I don't care if "most" PC gamers are playing "Deer Hunter F***s Barbie II", I know where to find my hard-core wargames and I'm damn happy about it. Sorry if the above is a bit rough (even with my self-censorship ), but I'm mad that so many are suffering through mediocre games while intelligent-gaming bliss is so easily available, Wendell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted June 23, 2000 Share Posted June 23, 2000 Damn! I think you need a Happy Meal, Wendell! Dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 Heh, thanks, Dar. That's the first "you're too angry" reply I've ever gotten, and I couldn't pick a better subject to be overwrought about. It really does bug me. P.S. That was real vitriol earlier, but I'm feeling better now [This message has been edited by WendellM (edited 06-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dar Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 Wendell: No, I don't think you're "too angry"--really, it's about right! I, too, am very sick of quality losing out to quantity, engineers and developers subservient to marketing trends and sales predictions, etc., that I feel pretty f*)#@&$ close to the way you feel... But I had to give you s#*@, because I could! Dar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 It's hard to know if this business model will be a success. Wargames only sell into the low 1000s. For example, TAOW 'only' sold about 1400 copies last year (if my source was correct). Wargames are definitely a niche (re: limited) market, which is why HPS and BTS chose to go the route they have taken. They will get very dedicated and loyal gamers but must keep costs low to be profitable in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 If BTS plans to make profit and sell only 1000 copies of a game then they would better release CM2 and CM3 this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark: For example, TAOW 'only' sold about 1400 copies last year (if my source was correct). Wargames are definitely a niche (re: limited) market, which is why HPS and BTS chose to go the route they have taken. They will get very dedicated and loyal gamers but must keep costs low to be profitable in the long term.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I find it hard to believe that CM will sell that small amount. I should think (hope) that the appeal of CM is going far beyond that of TOAW. 3D, eye candy galore, I am sure that BTS can break the 5-figure barrier. Especially if the Hare-CMs are keeping at it. So head over to that review site and proclaim the virtues of this game. Do it! NOW!!! All smilies on this iBook were removed by pest control. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 I can't tell you actual sales figures, but I can tell you that we passed the 1000 mark a long, long time ago (in a galaxy far, far away). No fears. We'll make it. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 Steve, Your comments about Operational Art of War's sales sound like they might be based on Wm. Trotter's article in PC Gamer (pg. 141 of June 2000 issue where he stated 1,298 copies sold in 1999). FWIW, this figure has come under criticism. However, the gist of your statement seems quite valid. "Real" wargames do tend to have small sales, and I agree that HPS's/BTS's choice of marketing is the way to go. With "wide" distribution they might sell 50% more copies (the grognards already know where to buy their copies and the layman will likely be put off by the "technical" subject matter), but with direct distribution they keep perhaps 100% more profit. It's a win-win situation. Hurrah for wargame sales on the Internet! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Big Time Software: No fears. We'll make it. Charles<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Never had any doubts about it. And it figures that 1,000 is a bit low. Would you need a fulfilment company to work on it for a week to send out 1,000 - I don't think so. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WendellM Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 "we passed the 1000 mark a long, long time ago [...] No fears. We'll make it." Glad to hear it, Charles! That should help put to bed the perception that wargames are "dead" (common not too long ago, after showing up in the mid 90's, the early 90's, the late 80's, ad nauseam - when will "they" learn?) [This message has been edited by WendellM (edited 06-23-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Capitalist Pig Posted June 24, 2000 Share Posted June 24, 2000 Well alright! That's excellent news Charles. Hey Steve Clark, are sure about TOAW only sellig about 1400 copies? Seems some what low. What about the endless add on packages they pumped out every month. Gotta be more. I bought the first TOAW, I enjoyed it for what is. Germanboy makes a good point about the 3D eye-candy, but I also think that the tactical level games out sell operational games 10 to 1. To abstract for most of the RTS group. Anyone know how many units SSI sold with Steel Panthers I, II, III. Heck you can't kill that series now that SPWAW is out. Pig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Clark Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 I had forgotten about this discussion. Wendellm, yes, that is exactly where the figure came from (I had forgotten where). I had not followed up on the criticisms, so it wouldn't surprise me that it is only a partial sales figure. As far as the sales of CM, it doesn't surprise that it is selling (and selling out!). From my perception, CM is the combination of the immensely popular Rainbow 6 with the tactical skills of wargames. I suspect, though, that CM still appeals to a limited market because 1) you really have to understand and like WW2 tactics and combat, and 2) you have to think like a grognard instead of a reflect-based aim and shoot warrior. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 I too think that sales figure is really low. Either it was dead wrong (not my guess) or it was written up out of context (my guess). As for the success of our business plan... so far it is looking pretty good. We aren't rich off of CM, and perhaps won't ever be, but we should be able to earn a decent enough living compared to what we could be earning working for an honest publisher or as direct gaming employees (and guys... I can promise you game company employees don't get paid big bucks except for a few. First hand experience ). Combat Mission and our ability to remain in business for the forseeable future has been made possible because of our business plan, so on that score I think you can say that we have succeeded. Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhanQueso Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 You mean spamming competitor’s boards? No, I do not think this is a success. If their product is so poor that they have to do it I think that speaks for itself. I looked at the product, as have several companies they were pimping it too and it is not that good. Wait for some real games coming down the pike. -Igotmilk™, Big Time is just a bunch of Big Time Spammers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdarnese Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 Those numbers probably come from pcdata and from what I can tell PC Data RARELY has their numbers right after the first top 20 games or so. They don't include a lot of chains, they don't include mail order, or Europe at ALL. I know they undercounted 101 by many 10's of thousands of copies. There is NO way TOAW or TOAW II only sold 1,400 copies or so. Most of the small independent games have sold more than that... ------------------ Richard Arnesen Shrapnel Games www.shrapnelgames.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You mean spamming competitor’s boards? No, I do not think this is a success. If their product is so poor that they have to do it I think that speaks for itself. I looked at the product, as have several companies they were pimping it too and it is not that good. Wait for some real games coming down the pike.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Speaking of "a galaxy far, far away" What the hell was that? Just FYI pal, BTS wasn't responsible AT ALL for any posts to other games boards. That was done by a VERY FEW over zealous fans who tried to spread the word and it got out of hand. Steve and Charles have repeatedly asked their fans (geeze, sounds like a rock group) NOT to indulge in such antics. Frankly, CM is so good they don't have to. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniperscope Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 Mr. Shaw is right on point. CM sells itself. We are not at war with the Close Combat forums. If you don't want to play a great war game like CM, then don't. sniperscope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 It's a real pleasure to see things going so well for you now I for one was very happy with CM even it's beta demo state, but your pushing ahead with improving the graphics and refining the engine was no doubt the right thing to do. The more the merrier it seems! Looking forward to the years to come with new versions of CM sitting on my hard disk, holo-memory, bubble-memory, protein-memory or whatever tech will be in vogue in the years to come. M. [This message has been edited by Mattias (edited 06-26-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waffen Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 i would also say useing BTS way of selling that profit would be very high .no middle man takeing his cut etc etc .and seeing that the engine is done this is important ,we know the interest. a russian front game will have and the work involved will be greatly reduced .just need to make the eye candy and some tweaks here and there.i realy wont be suprised to see the russian front game or addon avaliable for sale in 6 to 8 months adding futher sales and profit to BTS .and dont forget my jungle pack we must beable to get some aussie troops into the war cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KhanQueso Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 Joe Shaw, You say they didn’t, I say they did. Prove they weren’t spamming boards. I see nobody else with anything to gain. -Igotmilk™ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KhanQueso: Joe Shaw, You say they didn’t, I say they did. Prove they weren’t spamming boards. I see nobody else with anything to gain. -Igotmilk <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> So according to that logic you work for Atomic? ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sniperscope Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 KhanQueso, again I have to point out that Mr. Shaw's statement are true. BTS repeatedly asked the CM forum members not to push our game at the CC forum. But I have to ask you a question. Are you an emplyoee of Atomic? Or are you a customer like the rest of us? If you are a customer then I fail to see your problem. If someone comes to this forum and states "go check out the hell on wheels wargame, it has this and that and it's better than CM " I will run and check out to see it it's true. Why? because I am a customer, I want the best product for my money. This forum, for the most part is made up of people who have played both games and came to the conclusion that CM is a better product. However, in my opinion (I have most of the CC's) I have got to tell you that their simply is no contest. Don't get offended by my statement. If you disagree then lets try the following. Download the CM gold demo. Play it, come back to the forum and state your case as to why CC is better than CM. sniperscope Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Shaw Posted June 26, 2000 Share Posted June 26, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>You say they didn’t, I say they did. Prove they weren’t spamming boards. I see nobody else with anything to gain.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> By golly, you're right, I've re-examined my logic based upon your penetrating analysis and have determined that Steve and Charles WERE indeed the culprits of ALL the spamming done on the CC board. How could I have been so stupid? Please allow me to shoot myself to atone for my error? Look pal, I'm willing to take their word for it, you're obviously not. We could go on all day trading "You prove it" "NO, you prove it" posts but it just isn't worth it. This was moderately amusing for a while but not anymore. I'm glad that you have so much free time that you can afford to spend it posting here (I guess Junior High must be over where you live.) Good day to you, enjoy CC. Joe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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