Rifle Grenades

[von shrad]

How common were rifle grenades during this game's scope? Must have been useful during Nomandy breakout. Does CM model them?

[Guest Big Time Software]

CM does not model them. The reason is that we really could not find enough data to make (in our opinion) informed enough decisions about how common/plentiful they were. The complicating factor is that we do not have the ability to make "one the fly" TO&E for units, so if we give one squad type a rifle grenade launcher, ALL squads of that type will have one. From our basic research we felt that even one per squad (all the time, every time) was probably unrealistic. On balance it is probably CM is probably more realistic without it as too many would change the basic nature of battles, while not including it won't.

Steve

[von shrad]

Thanks for the clarification. Would it be possible to include a sub-class unit therefore allowing them to be added to OB's so as to not change unit constitution in simular units? It's not a major item as the game has PLENTY of depth, I'm just curious.

[Kevin Peltz]

I have read two or three accounts that stated that the rifle grenades were next to useless, and the GI's tended to throw them away first chance they got...

[Guest Big Time Software]

zI think we have 45 different squad types in CM, so that would require 45 seperate, special, squads with a few rifle grenade launchers. This is a pain in the arse for us to support, and it would also be a REALLY big pain to sift through when making a scenario. There are other "exotic" weapons we aren't simulating, and so far we feel that the rifle grenade launcher is in that group.

Steve

[Los]

About Rifle Grenades, HUGE post follows...

This is from Bruce N. Canfield's "U.S. Infantry Weapons of WWII" (ISBN 0-917218-67-1) One of the best, most comprehensive studies of all US infantry weapons. Not only does it go into all the details of each weapon (plus it's usage, and anecdotal reports of combat) but there's also a great collector's section following each weapon type that goes into rarity, availability, cost, plus all the laws on automatic weapons, curios and relics, destructive devices, and sale and transfer of such.

About rifle greandes: To quote Canfield:

"While the Handgrenade may be overlooked by many people today as an important infantry weapon of WW2, the rifle grenade is almost totally forgotten. Very little has been written regarding rifle grenade launchers, although these weapons were widely used and very interesting weapons." (BTW there's a lot to be garnished from this statement about the study of history: IMO we only know what people have bothered to report, what they felt was important of the time and often some stuff , taken for granted, goes unreported perhaps sometimes because writers of the time take it's common knowledge for granted. For a guy that's been a soldier for twenty years, this is obvious, even today it's true.)

First, abou the launchers themselves and their availability:

The M1 and M2 launcher (used w/ the M1903): About 435,000 were produced of this model. "Large numbers of m1903 rifles w/ M1+M2 launchers saw combat during WW2 and proved to be effective weapons (A Marine division, 1942 was authorized 456 units). The reasons for widespread use of the m1903 as a grenade launching platform, were two-fold. First garands were in short supply early in the war....secondly, problems encountered with developing a launcher for the M1 that allow semi-auto operation with the launcher in place were never solved during the war...For this reason, many using rifle grenades prefered to use the '03.....Even when sufficient M1s w/ launchers came available,, 03s were stilled viewed as superior for grenade launching and saw more service for a longer period of time than otherwise would have been expected during the war. Unlike the M2 launcher, which was declared limited standard on Dec 21, 1942, the M1 launcher (for the '03) was not declared obsolete and stayed in service through the end of the war."

M7 Grenade launcher: (used with the Garand): 795,699 were delivered to the US army between Feb 1944 and August 1945.) BTW a problem with this model was that you couldn't fire the Garand with the launcher attached! So in combat guys would fire the grenades then have to take it off, which led to a lot of them getting lost, thus the high production figure as replacements were constanly being sent up to front line units. "The M1 garand had gained a well-earned reputation as the premiere battle rifle of WW2, it's use as a grenade launching platform has often been overlooked. While the distinct disadvantage of limiting a rifle's semi-automatic firing capability, it was still a handy addition to the garand when a GI needed to fire a rifle grenade."

M8 grenade launcher (for the carbine, who'd a thunk!)387,165 were produced. Interestingly enough Canfield states that the carbine version was even in more high demand than the garand version because you could fire the weapon normally with the Grenade launcher attached. Hence the high production figures. One problem though, the folding stock carbines, firing a grenade could bend the metal of the stock. "despite these problems the use of a carbine as grenade launcher was common during WW2...The fact that a weapon weighing five pounds could stop a tank was amazing."

Note the large numbers of launchers produced: Roughly: 1.6 million plus. There would not have been that many produced throughout the war without a high use and demand. Jeez that's enough pretty much for every infantryman to have had one! (though it's obvious that not everyone carried them)

About ammo types:

M1 and M1A1 grenade projection adapters: Adpater-type launchers allowed for placing regular MkII frags onto the adapter and firing them. These usually had to be fired with butt on the ground due to recoil. "The M1 and M1A1 saw much use during the War and served to bridge the gap between hand thrown grenades and mortars. With practice a soldier could hit targets out to 200 meters...(from a 28th ID combat report) the MkII grenade was fired from the rifle, using a grenade projection and is a very effective way of firing into pillbox doors."

Chemical grenade adapter M2 and M2A1. This Adapter was for firing regular smoke, Wp and other chemical grenades.

M17 Impact Frag. Had a touchy impact fuze and saw very limited use.

AT rifle grenade M9, M9A1, M10. Had a shaped charge. ""If not as powerful as AT rocket (Bazooka) had EQUAL penetration at angles up to 50 degrees. (No range given but shaped charges are not entirely range dependant for their penetration, as long as the porpellant can get the round out their at the right angle.) The M9A1 rifle grenade still did excellent if less publicized work not only against tanks and half tracks, but bunkers and pillboxes....there were times when infantymen preferred it to the bazooka since it did not entail carrying an extra weapon." The M9 proved it's effectiveness in may instances of WW2:"InMarch 1945 I saw a replacement knock out a Tiger tank with a rifle grenade. He was concaled in a house about 15 feet from the tank as it came around a narrow street. He fired one round which hit the turret, blowing up the ammunition and killing the crew. Our battalion knocked out 10 german tanks w/ Rifle grenades over a period of 18 months."...Note that he also stated that the M9 was less effective in the PAC due to high moisture levels screwing up the round.

Smoke rifle grenades. There were proper smoke rifle grenades made also not just adapter versions

M19 WP rifle grenade. 2 million of these were manufactured and used in WW2. "The WP rifle grenade and rifle smoke grenade was devised for smoke screen work, but the former (WP) provded a good anti-personnell use as well, by the dispersal of burning phosphorus." Burst upon impact spreading WP in a 10 yards radiius giving off a dense smoke. It was apparently popular, from Ordanace dept technical services report: "A favorite with the infantryman was the WP rifle grenade, which was extremely useful in cleaning out enemy from open trenches or smoking him out of bunkers and foxholes."

Colored smoke grenades M22 and M23: M22 came in four colors, impact detonated, good for marking targets. Interestingly, the M23 let off smoke for 12 seconds upon firing producing a colored strem through the air, useful for control marking.

HC rifle smoke grenade: Burned for 30 seconds upon impact, produced dense smoke, used for concealing troop movements and provide cover for infantry.

Signal grenades: M17A1, M18A1: These were starclusters and parachute flares, used for signalling. Came in three colors.

There were also practice grenades.

Hopefully this helps clear up or inform a bit about the types, availability, commonality and use for US rifle grenades. (I have some info on foreign models but not to this extent. Hopefully somebody else can go dig up that info.) I think their use was fairly common in WW2. They are hardly "exotic" weapons based on their production figures and documented use. (And the fact that they would have been used pretty much just by infantry.)

However if CM can't model their availability properly that is an altogether different and perfectly acceptable. I just hate to see the fact that they were used and they were a common tool in the rifle squad's inventory confused with CM's ability to model them as an issue of why they aren't in the game. I don't think their absence is sorely missed since you definately wouldn't want the player to have to designate their use seperately (that's a level of micormanagement below the scope of CM) and it would just be something the AI factors into it's firepower.

However if the CM engine is ever rewritten to include the availability of these weapons (as Steve describes it with random ability assigned) I hope they are considered.

Hope some of this helps or was at least found to be instructive. Cheers...

Los

[Mark IV]

I need to add this from "Company Commander" (MacDonald):

[i requested] several types of ammunition, including 60mm mortar shells adapted for firing from the M1 rifle with the aid of a grenade launcher. My men had found the expedient to be most effective in street-fighting in Brest and swore that it was more effective than either hand grenades or fragmentation rifle grenades. It, in effect, put the equivalent of 60mm mortars in the forward foxholes."

Great book. Reads in parts exactly like some of the AARs around here.

[Los]

That's pretty interesting. Looking at a picture of a rifle/grenade adapter, there would have had to have been some adaptions to the mount (jury-rgged) to fire 60mms. ALso a 60mm HE is twice the weight of a MKII so that would have cut down range, not that it matters since this would have been a fairly short range thing. (From 200m to 100m I suspect)

Los

[Major Tom]

Wait a minute! I have seen countless American war movies where every rifle grenade lands in the open hatch of American tanks painted with a black cross! Where are all of these tank's in CM?! What's with this LOW ammunition thing?! Nobody runs out of ammo in war! TV says so! I thought that this game was accurate! The most accurate means of learning thing's in this Generation is through the media, at least that is what TV says.

[Los]

That would be CM7, "US WW2 movie" version.

You can choose between 40's era, where the tanks aren't even real, just some bs shell on a jeep. The germans especially in early war are wearing WW1 style coal bucket helmets, and US are wearing the brit style helmets and using watercooled 30 cals. And if you look closely to the wav files you can here the troops say "Steenkin' nips" , or "filthy heine bastards". The good thing is that they can splice in plenty of stock CM1 footage to make it look more realistic.

Then there's the fifties/sixties era. Enemy tanks are usually M46s or M47s painted gray with a cross on them. Still no German camo.

Look close at the seventies-eighties era in CM7. You see the troops have longer hair and fu man chu moustaches and everyone carries a grease gun. Still no damn camo for our Germans. Also you start too see appropriately ethnically mixed US squads with one caucasian, one african american and one asian GI. (yes BTS has thought of everything!)

Finally you can select nineties and 2000+ era where everything at least looks realistic, Surrelasitic 3d graphics, cool uniforms and the explosions are done in surround-sound even if it is just rehashed CM1 scenarios.

Coming soon...

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 01-02-100).]

[guachi]

Here's some info on German Rifle grenades taken from Germany's Infantry Weapons 1939-45 by Terry Gander.

(This is really long)

"In the domain of rifle grenades, German ingenuity was not rewarded with the usual degree of success. The main reason seems to have been that German designers regarded rifle grenades primarily as anti-armour. This was despite the fact that the low weights of the grenades, imposed by using ballistite cartridges to propel them, meant that the hllow charges involved had to be small, and the grenades were therefore limited in armour penetration performance. Even the few high-explosive grenades produced were relatively ineffective.

"The first rifle grenade launcher wa the Schiessbecher mit Klappkorn, a spigot launcher designed to be clamped ver the muzzle of a standard rifle using the bayonet mounting lug. The only grenade involved with this device was the Gewehr Granatepatrone P/30 (other designations were also used), a 60mm diameter hollow-charge grenade with a finned tail, a blunt nose and an impact fuze. The main disadvantages of this arrangement inclded not only the limited anti-armour performance - 80mm at best - but also the strains imposed on the rifle when the associated ballistite cartridge, with its wooden bullet, was fired.

The Schiessbecher

Despite these drawbacks, the spigot launcher and its associated grenade was retained until 1943, when the Gewehrgranatgerat - generally known as the 'Schiessbecher' - was introduced. This was a two-piece muzzle attachment clamped into place (examples intended for use with the 7.92mm MP 43/1 assault rifles were screwed on tho muzzle threads); a cup with a length of internal rifling imparted lunch spin to stabilize a family of special grenades during their trajectory. The associated grenades had a collar of matching pre-rifling, to corrrespond with the cup rifling, the cup having an internal diametr of 30mm. All the associated grenades were issued with a ballistite propelling cartridge taped to each grenade.

"One of the grenades was high-explosive, another was meant for target illumination, and there was even a propoganda grenade, which ejected the paper contents through its base while still in flight. Maximum range for all these types was about 240m. The explosive filling of the offensive grenade was only 32g, yet it could even be thrown as a hand grenade when necessary.

"Anti-armour grenades with hollow-charge warheads were also launched from the Schiessbecher, all of them of relatively light weight and with limited armour penetration. The base grenade, thje Gewehr Panzergranate 30, had a range of only 50m while the TNT hollow-charge warhead explosive weighed only 50g. It was soon supplanted by the Gross Gewehr Panzergranate 40. The range improved to about 90m, but the explosive still weighed only 127g, so it remained relatively ineffective. Then came the Gross Panzergranate 46 - the'46' denoting the warhead's outside diameter of 46mm - containing a warhead weight of 146g, capable of penetrating 90mm of armour under ideal conditions. Largest of all the Schiessbecher was the Gross Panzergranate 61. As with the 46mm version, the maximum range was about 180m, but the explosive weight increased to 246g, enhancing potential armour penetration to 126mm, again under ideal conditions. The Schiessbecher grenade concept was adopted by Japan.

"The Schiessbecher granade series could hardly be described as cost-effective - their cost and complexity extended to the complucated quadrand sight involved - and there were few compensations in terms of performance. There also remained the problem of high firing stresses, which could damage the associated rifles after prolonged use. To overcome this, it was decided to thread Schiessbecher cups on to the shortened barrels of otherwise redundant 7.92mm Panzerbusche 39 anti-tank rifles, to create the Granatbusche 39, dedicated to launching grenades only. Grenades were propelled by a 7.92mmx94mm Patrone 318 cartridge, with the usual armour-piercing bullet replaced by a wooden one. Maximum range launching grenades against moving targets was about 75m. During 1942 and 1943, 28,023 conversions were made. Most seem to have been issued to second-line formations, to boost their anti-tank armouries."

Strangely, no production figures are listed for the rifle grenades. Almost everything else in the book has production figures. Some for grenades:

Stielgranate (1939-45) 80,487,100

Nebelstielgranate (1939-43) 7,393,200

Eihandgranate (1939-45) 86,244,100

Blendkorper (a glass-bodied smoke grenade, 1943-45) 5,142,800

Panzerwurfmine (1943) 203,800

Haft-Holladung 3kg (anti-tank magnetic mine, 1942-1944) 553,900

Jason

[Los]

"Strangely, no production figures are listed for the rifle grenades. Almost everything else in the book has production figures."

It speaks to Canfields point about:

"Very little has been written regarding rifle

grenade launchers, although these weapons were widely used and very interesting weapons."

Does the book say anything about their operational use, popularity or annoyance with the troops? Canfields book spends some time on this not just the technical details. Looks like the Americans had a workable and widely accepted solution to the rifle grenade while the Germans did their usual "overengineering thing? Particularly with effectivenes since a large portion of the rifle grenades were in fact regular grenades fird from adapters which meant that the lethality was the same as a regular grenade. I wonder about the brits? Anyone know what they were up to?

BTW the other night I pulled off my "Lest We Forget" video, and outstanding 80 minutes of WW2 infantry action made at the end of the second World War. (Grab this one people, from Belle and Blade I believe) While watching it, I kept a sharp eye out for rifle grenades (It was all American footage) and it was very easy to see them in many scenes where you could make out equipment. throughout the whole NW Europe theater. You have to know what you are looking for though becasue GIs don't walk around with a rifle grenade stuck on the end of their launcher, but close scruitiny could spot the extenders on the barrerls. And keep in mind that most Garand adapters were only out on when they were going to be used since you could not fire rounds when it was attached.

Cheers...

Los

[Mark IV]

The discovery of the German wooden bullets by GIs led to rumors that they were for anti-personnel use, designed to splinter on impact with human bone. This was widely believed and is still held to this day by the slightly initiated- a common "urban legend" at gun shows. The ballistic properties of a wooden 7.92mm slug never seems to occur to the believers.

[Moon]

I remember reading sometime back (but for the hell of it can't remember where, I've read so many books - I'll post the source when I find it), that on occasion, one rifleman from the US squad was designated as rifle grenadier. His job was to support the assault element of the squad, together with the BAR gunner. That's all I can remember for now, more when I find back that book...

[guachi]

Los,

I quoted the entire section on rifle grenades. Other sections mention operational use, popularity, effectiveness. The section on rifle grenades is noticeably absent these descriptions.

The only non-technical description is that the grenades were not cost effective.

Jason

[MOS was 71331]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Tom:

Wait a minute! I have seen countless American war movies where every rifle grenade lands in the open hatch of American tanks painted with a black cross! Where are all of these tank's in CM?! What's with this LOW ammunition thing?! Nobody runs out of ammo in war! TV says so! I thought that this game was accurate! The most accurate means of learning thing's in this Generation is through the media, at least that is what TV says.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, Major, I've seen a lot of war movies, but I can recall only once seeing a rifle grenade used: in the 60s "Battle of the Bulge" when the Krauts attacked Lt MacDonald's (I think that's the name of the actor who played Danno on "Hawaii 5-0" -- as in "Book him, Danno. Murder One.") platoon. One of the retreating GIs plants the butt of his M1 on the ground and fires off a rifle grenade. I was an ROTC cadet when the movie came out, so I took particular note of that scene.

What other war movies are you thinking of?

------------------

Airborne Combat Engineer Troop Leader (1966-1968)

[Major Tom]

Well, in the series "Combat Mission" I can recall them using Rifle Grenades to blow up 2 US, er, German tanks in order to rescue a few captured airborne troops. I guess that stating a lot was a little bit too exagerated, but, my entire post was about exageration, wasn't it?

(Whoops! I meant to type "Combat" instead of "Combat Mission)

[This message has been edited by Major Tom (edited 01-05-2000).]

[Moon]

"Saving Private Ryan" shows a rifle grenade being fired, too, I think. It's right after the Rangers stormed the cliffs and after taking out the bunker on top. An unidentified GI fires a rifle grenade into the openening of another bunker or something... No idea if what they show is realistic - the detonation is quite large IMO... and from the way he handles the rifle, it does not appear to me that one can run around and fire rifle grenades anywhere - in fact, it seems to be quite cumbersome to do so and I can't see any way to properly aim this thing...

[MOS was 71331]

In "Battle of the Bulge" the retreating GI aimed -- and I use the word loosely -- his rifle grenade like a mortar: butt of the M1 on the ground and grenade-topped rifle pointed up at 70 or 80 degrees. It was definitely an indirect fire weapon. Without having ever fired one, I'd guess that having all that weight at the end of the barrel would make it difficult to fire accurately from the shoulder. In the movie, the soldier fired it hastily in the general direction of the attacking Germans.

[Richard III]

Audie Murphy uses one in his movie to take out some Germans working on an immobilized tank.

[Los]

Again from Canfield:

"Almost all types of rifle grenades generated a great deal of recoil when fired." In fact it was often enough to spit the stock on the M1 carbine or bend the metal folding stock so that should give you an idea of the kind of recoil involved. Sure a hearty guy could fire it off the shoulder but it was mostly fired from the ground like you see in most movies. There was also a recoil boot manufactured which went on the butts of M1s and M1903s to lesson the shock if fired on the shoudler or reduce the dstress on the stcok if fired from the ground.

The other main reason was that the rifle grenade was usually fired in an arc, (which is where the range came from) and the raised rings on the launcher adpater served as an aiming device when used with angle of elevatin to deterimne range. There were also two types of sights made for teh rifle launchers, (20,000 were made).

By the way there is a picture of a guy firing a mortar round off the launcher in Canfield's book. pretty neat.

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 01-04-2000).]

[von shrad]

Well, BTS did it again. Looks like thy're in. Good job guys. Thought I would put this thread on top again.

[This message has been edited by von shrad (edited 01-12-2000).]