The new Russian Empire of the 21st century

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

"They beat me with clubs and

mop-handles, they kicked me, walked

over me," he recalled in an interview

Tuesday afternoon. And he revealed a

back covered with bruises and legs

mottled with burns.

"Half of it I don’t remember, I think I spent most of the time unconscious. I

just remember waking up after the beatings, lying on the floor, tied with

handcuffs to two chairs. The policemen were drinking tea."

This is what Moscow Secret police did to a Chechen youth living in Russia for carry bullets in his pocket. Just this week. If you all remember before this latest war started in Chechnya Yeltsen was still president. Moscow and Putin have not given out any solid evidence that the blasts in Moscow were actually caused by Chechens. Putin (ex-KGB) as second in command could have quite easily planted those bombs himself, as a pretext to start a war, kick Yeltsen out and seize power himself. Its totally scariy. Have you seen Putin swagger around. Central asian rebels have attacked into Uzbekistan and are fighting federal troops there also. Considering what Russian has done to Asia in the last 100 years I don't blame them at all even if they did bomb Moscowvites. Ask any Finn what they think of Russia pollution has done to them, you will get a very loud response. Russians have diverted most of the water that flows into the Aral sea causing it to dry up.(Kazakstan needs its wheat to keep its economy afloat) Russia has a nasty Biological and chemical testing lab on a island in the middle of the Aral sea. Now that is drying up, Nasty giant corosive dust storms are turning central asia into cancerous desert. Plus remember how badly the Russia's treated the Afgans? They deserve some revenge if you ask me.

[Hamstersss]

I hope I'm the first to condemn this tripe. Simpleminded and in the same league as the revisionist Pakistan crap.

[Dittohead]

Time to lock it up before it gets ugly.

[Purple4Ever]

Well, as the old saying goes -

"There are two sides to every story".

That's all I'm sayin' and this is as far as I'm getting into this 'discussion'.

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And on the eighth day, God made the Art of War

And laughing, planned the end.....

[Hamstersss]

Maybe I'm falling into the trap here but let's not forget what your innocent Muslim terrorists have done in and to Cheznya, Albania, Pakistan and Afganistan. Can you say "Stone a woman to death for appearing outdoors without covering her entire body." boys and girls?

[Disaster@work]

LOCK LOCK LOCK THIS UP

[Kingfish]

Please lock this up

Thank you

[killmore]

Let remember the heads of the Russians sent to russian medias by Chechens. Yes during the Yeltsin.

Both sides do their share.

How come you don't get that?

LOCK THIS UP PLEASE

[This message has been edited by killmore (edited 08-16-2000).]

[Chupacabra]

Mr. Johnson -

Your profile says that you're from Oregon. I'm from New York, so, one American to another -

Yes, Russia has done some nasty things. America has also done nasty things. In the not-so-distant past we tried our level best to blow the living crap out of Vietnam, a nation which didn't do a whole lot to us but had the extraordinarily bad luck of having a Communist revolution during a time when we were as anti-Communist as we've ever been. The government we were trying to prop up was no gem; they had a knack for torturing and executing suspect spies and "anti-democratic elements."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Ask any Finn what they think of Russia pollution has done to them, you will get a very loud response. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ask any Canadian what they think of American factories causing acid rain in Eastern Canada.

In the past year we've seen a riot or two (LA after the Lakers won the championship, and for argument's sake I'll include the IMF protestors), we've seen a bunch of very questionable actions by policemen, and as for race relations, well, we've got a long way to go.

Don't get me wrong, I love living in America. It's offered me opportunities which I wouldn't have gotten anywhere else. My point? Name me a country that hasn't done some incredibly stupid **** in the recent past and I'll move there. I'm not sure why you've got this super anti-Russia bent, but you'd best be sure you're not holding them to higher standards than you hold your own country.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[killmore]

Acid Rain from Detroid, NY area is causing thousands of Mapple trees to die in Canada.

I am not even going to mention Great Lakes pollution.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Oh believe me, I do not think for a second that USA has clean hands. I just wanted to say a few things about how fishy the whole bombing of apartment buildings in Moscow, drunk on vodka Yeltsen gets pushed aside, and Putin wins in a landside "election" thing. And vent a little about my digust with the media american media paying so little attention to the massive attack on the chechens. thats all. It is so very very sad about the enviromentaly devestation throughout Russia. My anti-Russian bent is not directed at the russian people but the higher ups who put their underlings in bad situations, then when things go bad they make the underlings the scapegoat. The Russian navy will probably blame the captain of the Kursk for the accident, when its the lack of support, and lack of funds, and lack of proper training that caused the accident (most likely) IMHO. Remember when that resupply capsule collided with the Mir? Russia blamed the captain for that, but Russia could not afford to pay for computer docking program and he had to connect them by hand with one fuzzy camera. Does not matter how great a pilot you are. Those hunks of metal are flying at like mach 28. It was not his fault.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Any ever heard of that United Nations thing, that every people have the right to self-determination? I hate it when people are denied that.

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-:

Any ever heard of that United Nations thing, that every people have the right to self-determination? I hate it when people are denied that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The current Russian war against Chechnya started when the Chechens invaded a neighboring republic (Uzbekistan, I think), and attempted to set up a united Islamic republic, which the Uzbeks didn't want. Sounds to me like the Chechens aren't too big on self determination themselves. The Russians aren't playing nice with the Chechens, it's true, but don't make this out to be a one-way thing.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

You are very right Elijah meeks. Some of these Muslim central asian cultures can be pretty nasty. The horse armies of Taijistan warlords don't really recruit soldiers. The men (and boys) are forced by threat of death to fight for these so-called generals. Their payment is mostly likly raping and pillaging. Plz read my 2 above posts. I hope there clear this up a bit. I'm not trying to be a revisionist, but just like Purple4ever said, trying to get (part) their side of the story out there.

[Hamstersss]

Keep in mind that our country fought a Civil War over the same issue the Russians are fighting. I think that your anecdotal evidence of Russian abuse of Chechens, as well as all anecdotal evidence, does not outweigh the societal fact that many of the Muslim regimes are very happy to legally and systematicly oppress their people.

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

The current Russian war against Chechnya started when the Chechens invaded a

neighboring republic (Uzbekistan, I think), and attempted to set up a united Islamic

republic, which the Uzbeks didn't want. Sounds to me like the Chechens aren't too

big on self determination themselves. The Russians aren't playing nice with the

Chechens, it's true, but don't make this out to be a one-way thing.

I like and respect you Chupacabra you sound like you got a great head on your sholders. But I thought the war started because the Chechens did not like Russian rule, before or after the Berlin war came down. And were trying to get there independence, when Russia said no and moved in troops sparking the war 3 and 1/2 years ago? As for Uzbekistan its on the other side of the Caspian sea, look at your map. Plus I thought Uzbekistan was more of a Russian puppet state. Not as bad as Kazakstan, what with the Russian Space agency running Ships out of Baikonur in central Kazakstan.

[Guest Der Unbekannte Jäger]

The prospect that one nation is better morally is insane. There is no "right" and "wrong" its whatever media has you thinking, they show you pictures with a sotry along with it, you believe it. You cry foul against the perpetrators. It is then found out to be a completly different story. the Submarine "Kursk" story was so messed up, on sunday night it was reported to be one of the fast Akula class subs, then it was a Delta then a Typhoon, finally the real story came out it was a late OSCAR class. Do not let the media control what you see. Be informed.

*******LOCK THIS UP**********

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

Why you guys want to lock this UP?!?? These are just words. Its not like any of us are running around commiting atrocites. except in those bloody 8 inch bombardents.

[Scortchus]

The canadians would complain about US pollution, but hey keep forgetting about it cause of the Alzheimers caused by canadian aluminum factories

[Tom Callmeyer]

Have you ever noticed how in CM when you try to......

Oh Gee sorry I thought I was in a Gaming Forum.

Lock it!

This is not the place for political tirades. And don't try to compare this diatribe to the sober historical commentary which is appropriate here. The opening message was a call to violence!

"They deserve some revenge if you ask me"

[Philistine]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-:

Why you guys want to lock this UP?!?? These are just words. Its not like any of us are running around commiting atrocites. except in those bloody 8 inch bombardents.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Primarily because this is COMPLETELEY off-topic, having nothing to do with the game, World-War II or even general military topics.

Secondly, its highly charged and slanted political rhetoric which is guaranteed to engender strong responses.

Before starting a discussion off-topic (and even on-topic) one might do well to ask oneself "What is the purpose in posting this?" If the answer is merely "I want to tell everyone how I feel about something going on in the world today" I would suggest that you might want to not post (at least on this forum). There are appropriate places to post this type of discussion on usenet.

Just my $.02 (remember, you asked why people were calling for a lock of the topic)

--Philistine

[Guest Mr. Johnson-<THC>-]

ok mates, plenty fair enough. I guess I see politcs, economics, and war all tightly wound together. But from now on I'll keep my posts on CM topics. Don't know how you can keep war in nice sober historicaly commentary without touching on nastyness, but thanks for keeping this sane, and going easy on me. Some of you obviously felt very stongly about these issues and wanted to say more but keep it to yourselves.

[Chupacabra]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mr. Johnson-<THC>-:

As for Uzbekistan its on the other side of the Caspian sea, look at your map.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I said, I thought it was Uzbekistan. I was writing that post off the top of my head from work.

The Russians and the Chechens have fought two wars since the collapse of the Soviet Union. The first began when Chechnya seceded from Russia, and ended because Russian public opinion was against the war and the Russian army was tired and morale was low.

The second began a few years after the first ended. Chechnya invaded a neighboring republic, whichever one it was doesn't really matter, and attempted to set up an Islamic republic encompassing that state, with Chechyna as the dominant partner. At the same time, terrorist bombs began exploding in apartment complexes in several Russian cities. These bombings were pretty much universally accepted to have been conducted by Chechens. Between the invasion and the bombings, Russia decided to once more go to war. As of about a year ago, Russian public opinion of the war was extremely positive. Since then, I've lost some track of the situation, because I've very busy. I'd be willing to look up the relevant facts, if you're so inclined.

However, I'd prefer not to. To be honest, I see little point in continuing this discussion. These kinds of academic pissing contests are one of the things I liked least about college, and I'd much rather be spending my time doing something I enjoy, like talking about hamsters.

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Soy super bien, soy super super bien, soy bien bien super bien bien bien super super.

[Stuka]

Amen, Chupacabra, unless it's chezchen hamsters your'e talking about of course

[Fionn]

"This is what Moscow Secret police did to a Chechen youth living in Russia for carry bullets in his pocket. "

LOL. So you're telling me that the "evil" Secret Police didn't kill this little idiot for carrying bullets around?

Frankly if I was in the Secret Police and found a member of a country waging war on me and quite ok with conducting terrorist attacks within the borders of my country walking around my capital city with BULLETS in his pocket ( in other words, probably a courier) I'd put him against a wall and shoot him ( only after torturing contacts out of him of course).

Good God Johnson,

This little idiot was carrying BULLETS around. Of course he was beaten. He should have been shot. It's not like he was strolling around doing nothing. He was transporting the weapons of war around for his buddies to use in killing Russians. Last time I looked it was quite legal to shoot guerilla couriers.

I always find it funny when people try to portray some government as "evil" by telling us the government beat up a courier carrying bullets or explosives around. Shows just how little these guys understand the realities of the situation.

As for Afghanistan...

And let's not forget that the various Muslims you Americans and the British trained in urban terrorism techniques so you could attack the Soviets in Afghani towns have formed the nucleii of Muslim guerilla cells when they returned home. Hell, these guys are so dangerous that a lot of the Gulf States won't even let them return home after the first few who returned home took part in the bombings of US Barracks during and after the Gulf War and began forming guerilla groups to conduct terrorist attacks against the Kings of the countries involved.

Hell, even some of the guys from Britain who went to Afghanistan have returned home and caused almighty trouble with their calls to form "cells" for the inevitable fight against non-Muslim Britain. (None of this is made up... You can do some research and find this all out for yourself if you wish).

"Any ever heard of that United Nations thing, that every people have the right to self-determination? I hate it when people are denied that."

Aye. I suggest you go to your nearest Native Indian reserve. A distinct ethnic group has been isolated into "concentration areas" with high mortalities, chronic health and addiction problems, limited government care and NO self-determination rights.

I suggest you go to your own "back yard" and take care of your own problems first.

In conclusion... None of this is an attack on anyone's country. I merely have a habit of taking a strong stance when someone presents a one-sided view of something. And one thing I particularly detest is when someone appears to be twisting facts or is in complete ignorance of important facts.

Really Johnson,

The kid had bullets in his pockets. This paints him as a courier. If it had been me in command of said interrogation centre he'd never have left it alive and, you know what ? I'd be legally correct in shooting him.

Poor little boy got beaten up.. BAD Russians.

Well, your poor little boy was carting bullets around and will probably be shooting and trying to kill Russians in a short while. Bloody propagandists turning him into some sort of victim. Makes me sick.