krm Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 I just found a very interesting page which has a 680 page analysis of the Ardennes offensive, including events leading up to it, decisions for it and practically everything else about the subject that you could think of Excellent scenario guide with detailed descriptions of the units involved. http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/wwii/7-8/7-8_CONT.HTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 Best info I've found on this is a book called THE BATTLE OF THE BULGE then and now IT is about 1000 pages VERY INFORMATIve and excellent reading ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 Thanks for finding that... The "Sad Sack Affair" (page 601) makes for some interesting reading, as does the EPILOGUE which compares the various weapons used. Well done, KRM. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Username Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 thanks it gives me more ammo for my "stugs vs steve" post. Lewis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 Krm Excellent site. Additionally I´d like to recomment the Osprey Order of battle series No. 4 and 5 Ardennes Northern sector. These provide excellent analysis for the german (VI Panzerarmee) and american side (V and XVIII US Corps). Have a look at: http://www.osprey-publishing.co.uk/orderofb.htm Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 I've got both OOB series books from Osprey and they indeed are excellent. Unfortunately, reading them opened a can of worms... many of the small unit accounts in there and several maps do not match what I read about the Ardennes battles in other books. Now, that doesn't mean that Osprey is wrong at all (could very well be the other way arond, actually), but it's just damn' confusing... makes clear again how difficult it is to make "historical" scenarios... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krm Posted April 14, 2000 Author Share Posted April 14, 2000 I was quite lucky to find it. I was actually trying to find Allied OOB's for the Battle of France, but couldn't find any Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 Moon, LOL! Yes I know, the more you read the more you get confused and see how ermmmm.... biased some accounts are. Without opening a can of worms here, one example though: Try to find out what happened on 13th June 1944 in Villers-Bocage EXACTLY or try to find out how Michael Wittmann came to death on 8th August 1944 near Cintheaux - St.Aignand Read: - Patrick Agte "Michael Wittmann and the Tiger Commanders of LSSAH" - Gary Simpson "Tiger Ace" - Ken Tout (have forgotten the title, I think it was Tanks or the other book) - Hubert Mayers War diary of 12th SS Panzerdivision "Hitlerjugend" - Eric Lefevre "Panzer in Normandy" - Will Fey "Panzerkampf" or in english "Armour battles of the Waffen SS" - Kurt Mayers "Grenadiere" And you will find out very quick that you have to keep in mind that each Author might have an intention, which is not in every case to provide unbiased objective information. But talking about the Osprey series, they are well known for being pretty good researched and written from international historical capacities. You can no doubt pretty much rely on what you find there. I´m looking forward for the next set of OOBs featuring the central sector with PanzerLehr and 2nd Panzerdivision. They are announced for Mai/June. Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DesertFox: try to find out how Michael Wittmann came to death on 8th August 1944 near Cintheaux - St.Aignand <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think the ultimate statement on that topic for me came from Michael Reynolds in 'Steel Inferno - 1st SS Panzer Corps in Normandy'. 'The only thing therefore which can be said with any certainty is that Wittmann did not survive the 8th of August fighting against the British, Canadians and Poles.' (p.305) Good read by the way. (Disclaimer, this poster has absolutely no clue about anything whatsoever, should not be confused with a Grognard and any endorsements of books or merchandise he makes are not worth the pixels needed to display it on your screen) ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 Uh, yeah I missed him Michael Reynolds OF COURSE !!!!! I can only recommend to get all of his books, excellent reading, all three "The Devil´s Adjudant" "Steel Inferno" and "Men of Steel" He covers with these three books pretty much everything about 1st SS Panzercorps (LAH and HJ) from 6th June 1944 in Normandy "Steel Inferno" over the Battle of the Bulge "The Devil´s Adjudant" and the last battles in Hungary "Men of Steel". Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moon Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 Actually, a pretty detailed description about Wittmann and how he supposedly died can be found in "A Fine Night for Tanks". I'm at work now so I can't look up the author, but it's a fairly new book. The author has interviewed a Firefly gunner who has shot up a "column of Tigers" on August 8th in the area where Wittmann's tiger was found. Anyway, there's been a long dicussion about this a few months back on this message board. BTW, the problem with the Osprey series is that their CAMPAIGN series (ARDENNES) and their OOB series contradict each other. When you check out some of the descriptions you will find a lot of differences, some minor, some pretty big. That's what made me a little skeptical about what I was reading... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon: Actually, a pretty detailed description about Wittmann and how he supposedly died can be found in "A Fine Night for Tanks". I'm at work now so I can't look up the author, but it's a fairly new book. The author has interviewed a Firefly gunner who has shot up a "column of Tigers" on August 8th in the area where Wittmann's tiger was found.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ken Tout, who also wrote 'Tank!'. He was a gunner/commander of a Cromwell in the 2nd Northamptonshire Yeomanry, and claims to have been present on the day, on the other side of the road, luring the Tigers of Wittmann into the trap, IIRC. So I would take that with a grain of salt. He also claims that TOTALIZE was a big success, somethink Reynolds is not so sure about. Having said that, Tout's books are well worth reading, Tank! probably more so than 'A fine night for tanks', in the latter he tries to go in search of history instead of sticking to his own account. Tout, Ken, A fine night for tanks : the road to Falaise - Stroud: Sutton, 1998. 075091730x and Tout, Ken, Tank!. - London : Hale, 1985. - 0709022778 Oh, the usual disclaimer applies. ------------------ Andreas [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 04-14-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesertFox Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 The book within which he presents the Trooper Ekins story. I can´t remember which of the two it was. But what seems to be pretty clear and what is in absolute agreement with the firsthandaccounts of survivors of the Tiger tanks and the Abteilungsarzt of sSSPzAbt101, is that they (the germans)got fire out of their right flank from the Northamptonshire Yeomanry which stood near St.Aignand, while the germans expected the big threat out of the direction Bretteville sur Laise (sp?) from the Canadians. So most propably they got caught in their flank that day. That´s what I can write out of memory about that book. To the result of TOTALIZE, well intention was to reach Falaise with the Assault, well they didn´t reach that Objective in their timeframe and if I think about Worthington force, well I can´t but say that TOTALIZE was a failure. Nevertheless they whittled down the oh so valuable german tanks a bit more and kept the german reserves busy. To the Campaign series from Osprey, well that´s another story. Read their book about the Normandy campaign and make your own judgement. I for one don´t give much if it goes into detail, but to get a rough overview they do their job. The OOB series is way better researched than the Campaign series. Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Capsule/2930/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted April 14, 2000 Share Posted April 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy: 'The only thing therefore which can be said with any certainty is that Wittmann did not survive the 8th of August fighting against the British, Canadians and Poles.' (p.305) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Did not survive against the Poles... . Actually, I greatly respect Wittmann. He was an amazing TC, and his gunner, Bathalsar Woll (I think, but I'm not an expert) was just incredible. ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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