A bit off-tpoic....a bit

[PanzerShark]

Since there are some real technuts here at the board i was wondering if somebody knows this.

1) Was the LAH (Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler)a "sub-group" in the Waffen-SS or was it an entirely different group?

2) Are there any good diaries from german/american soldiers. Since most aren't found in regular bookshops or are even maybe forbidden (please include isbn-nr)

3) Any good WW2-movies (no propaganda ones like "A bridge to far" or "The longest day", but ones like "Stalingrad" and, dare i say it, "Saving private Ryan")

4) When i order the drawings (the ones here at BFront) do i receive a mail about the availibility BEFORE s&h. Or do i have to wait until i receive them and then hope they are all there ? (since i want to order 3 and although they all look great i only want those 3)

And to stop this Spanish Inquisition....

5) When playing C.M. will it be possible to use the 88Flak as both AA and AT ?

Thx in advance.

PanzerShark

[Fionn]

1. It was a standard Waffen-SS division but as the "bodyguard" division of Hitler it had special status.

It's cadre was initially (when it was the LAH regiment) drawn from Hitlers bodyguards.

2. Guy Sajer (don't know ISBN of it) but I have some issues with what he writes and its veracity. There's lots of diaries around finding the good ones is the trick.

3. Well I personally think "A bridge too far" is good. Sure some of it is all glory and smokescreens but its not a documentary. Its better than many movies which try to be realistic.

Check out Das Boot.. And not the short version you might have in most stores. Check out the 6 hour long original german version. They go a bit overboard on the, "most germans were good germans" bit but its excellent. Stalingrad was a HUGE apologist movie FWIW , something which put me off it.

5. I'm guessing yes but obviously the type of carriage the 88 is on and the version of the gun would make a huge difference in effectiveness. In the same way as there were many rifles variants to the Kar 98 there were MANY variants to the 88.

There were Flak 18s, Pak 38s, Pak 43s, Paks on 75mm gun carriage hybrid flak/pak carriages etc.

[Mike Oberly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>2. Guy Sajer (don't know ISBN of it) but I have some issues with what he writes and its veracity.

There's lots of diaries around finding the good ones is the trick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes,Guy Sajer's 'The Forgotten Soldier' is one of the most remarkable books I've ever read,though I wouldn't call it a diary-more a war memoir.It's one thing to read some dry history book proclaim 'The German troops who escaped across the Dnieper were demoralized,sick,and largely without weapons',and quite another to read Sajer's terrifying firsthand account.His book imparts the terror of war better than anything else I've read.

Some dates and places don't exactly jibe with history,but I believe it is a genuine memoir-remember,he wrote it twenty odd years after the war.

Mike

[PanzerShark]

Thx for the reply.

As for "Das Boot the heavy version " i've seen it and yes it's good. You're true about Stalingrad (the apology-thing), but somehow, i think, the german movies are better then the american. I think that, like "a bridge to far", the american movies are a bit "war is fun, let's die together"-types whereas the german ones are more like "it's no fun, we're screwed !!". Ofcourse this is used lots of times as an apology (like "we germans had it rough too"), but since i don't seek for apologies in a movie, it all just seems more "realistic".

I'll stop here before this board becomes

MOVIEREVIEW.COM but somehow i've never seen a ww2-movie which really impressed me.

Thx again,

PanzerShark

[Doug Beman]

"And to stop this Spanish Inquisition...."

We certainly hadn't expected it!

DjB

Silly, silly, silly

[Guest Big Time Software]

Panzershark,

This might sound reversed, but the 88mm Flak gun in CM can be used only as an AT weapon. The reason is that (in real life) the 88, when used against aircraft, was a "medium flak" weapon which fired "flak barrages", generally against heavy bombers. The idea was to score hits by shell fragments rather than a direct shell hit. The 88 was too large to fire directly at small, maneuverable fighters - but that's exactly the type of airplane that you'll see in CM. No strategic bombing, but plenty of fighter-bombers. So the 88 isn't an appropriate weapon to shoot at a low-level fighter-bomber. But quad 20mm flak sure is...

Charles

[PanzerShark]

Thx again for the overwhelming replies

That the 88 is only AT is fine by moi Charles.It are tanks i hate...planes are lovely

[Guest Big Time Software]

"Forgotten Soldier" is a great book, but it is pretty much been established as a work of fiction with some likely real stuff (probably from other vets) sprinkled in. Fionn, that is probably why you have some issues with it Everybody here should read it, but understand that it isn't fact through and through.

Movies...

"The Bridge" (German film from the 1950s. WWII's equivalent to All's Quite on the Western Front). This movie recently came back into circulation and can be had quite easily. I have a copy

"Come and See" (Early 1980s Soviet film). If you get past some of the ideological stuff, Come and See is the most realistic WWII Eastern Front film, and one of the best war films of all time. The fact that it was made in the tail end of the Soviet era, but was WAY more realistic than anything Hollywood had put out, is quite interesting. Hard to get, and slightly expensive, but it can be found.

"Massacre in Rome" (1970s? multinational production) Details the massacre in 1944 of some 300 or so Italians due to a partisan attack. Very dramatic and quite true to history, and VERY true to WWII setting (although they had a soldier with a MP40 magazine pouch set on backwards <g>). Stared some big name actors, with Richard Burton stared as the SS Colonel (or was it Major?) who was put in charge of rounding up the victims. Paints a very interesting human drama that some find apologetic to the German executioners. But from what I have read the account is more fact than apology.

Some more... "The Tin Drum", "Europa, Europa", "Bridge over the River Kwai", a good drama set in the Bulge between a US and German squad (Tim Robins and an all star cast, but can't remember the name!), and some fairly recent movie with Anthony Hopkins as a post war French collaborator (the name has something to do with "replacement" or something. Help on this?)

That should keep you busy

Steve

[Guest Big Time Software]

PanzerShark...

All posters orders are treated as a single order. If you order 3 you will get 3, or the order will be held up until we have everything for you.

Steve

P.S. The posters are very cool

[Guest Lokesa]

That bulge drama was good, the name was something like silent night or on a midnight clear. Can't remember either, cool flick though.

[Guest John Pender]

Diary of a German Soldier by Wilhelm Pruiller

is an entertaining diary which begins on August 30 1939 and ends in April 1945. I aquired it from the local library as a kid about twenty years ago, I wonder how much the late fee is on it now? I am not sure were to get it now but the Library of Congress catalog card number is 63-20759

good luck.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Lokesa, it is indeed "On a Midnight Clear", or something VERY close to it! My wife found it slow, but I found it intense. I must have seen that movie 6 or 7 years ago, yet I often find myself thinking about how well it portrayed the human side of war.

John, I think you might be a defacto Felon by now

Steve

[Mike Oberly]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Forgotten Soldier" is a great book, but it is pretty much been established as a work of fiction

with some likely real stuff (probably from other vets) sprinkled in. Fionn, that is probably why you

have some issues with it Everybody here should read it, but understand that it isn't fact

through and through.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It can be argued either way convincingly(and I have argued both ways in my own mind ,as many articles will attest,but the way I have come to look at it is if it is indeed *not* mostly firsthand,then it is probably an even more impressive achievement than if it is.

Some of the characters(e.g.,the 'veteran') certainly seem either invented or embellished.But in the end,I agree,Steve-it's a must read for anyone with a serious interest in the war.

Mike

[Wesy]

Another good movie or movies...On another front, probably some of the most realistic and balanced views of Pearl Harbor - Tora Tora Tora - This gets past the usual propaganda movies that were made in the 40's and 50's. There are some historical inaccuracies in the equpiment (i.e. Japanese planes taking off of US Carriers - but hey all the Japanese carriers are underwater). I have an extreme interest in the PTO and the Imperial Japanese Navy in paticular. Just my two cents...

[Simon Fox]

I have not yet been able to get a hold of a copy but I have heard that the Finnish movie, "Winter War" is very good and very accurate. If anybody has seen it they might be able to add to that.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Thanks Simon, I was trying to remember the name of that one. Haven't seen it myself. There is also an Italian film about the disaster of the 1942/43 winter for the Italian Army. No clue what the name of that is, but it sounds very good.

Steve

[Los]

My favorites:

(I assume we're talking ground based WW2?)

1. SPR. 'Nuff said.

2. Winter War, (just as good as SPR) Russia vs Finland. YOU MUST OWN THIS MOVIE.

3. Come and See. Like Steve says...

4. Cross of Iron. Needs little introduction if you call yourself a ww2 move buff. Some great one liners, my favorite: (kruger)

"Idiots. If you've been in the field as long as I have, you'd know. Natural body oils...combined with dirt...can help make you waterproof."

5. Bridge Too Far. The best airborne sequences ever.

6. Battleground. Van Johnson. 101st at Bastonge. A classic and a great story.

7. Objective Burma (people!!!!) Erroll

Flynn. Sure it's got propaganda (those stinking nips...) but it's the one of the best examples of a real special op gone bad that you'll find anywhere. Good battle sequences (has the rare .30 cal single man operated LMG in it) A good flick considering it was made in 1945. I show it to Special Forces Assessment and Selection candidates when we evaluate them. (part to keep them awake during sleep deprivation cycles, part because it shows how everything goes wrong.)

8. The Lost Command. OK OK it's really the French in Algeria, 1950s but this para battalion has damn cool uniforms and lizard caps (steve?) Good battle sequences. Anthony Quinn.

BTW Sand of Iwo Jima is on DVD now and it has some footage that was edited out. Mostly live footage from Tarawa and Iwo Jima, which is woven into the acted out stuff quite well. Worth a watch.

Biggest dissappointments ever made.

1. Thin Red Line. How someone could take one of the greatest war books ever written and vomit all over it so thoroughly I'll never know. (Oh yeah didn't Verhoeven do that with StarShip Troopers too?)

2. Stalingrad. Jeez. A good story. Plenty of money behind it. Some good battle sequences, (well the tank attack) but they could have spent the money on a technical advisor that would have made the battle scenes more realistic particularly the very disappointing city fighting scenes. I waited so long for this flick and was there at the studio in Germany when they were filming it. It's nota terrible flick like TRL, it just could have been a lot better.

BTW as an aside I do own that Italian Russian Front Movie Attack and Retreat. (W/ Peter Falk) It's worth a rent if you can get it.

And I still haven't seen "The Bridge!"

Now if we spread to other areas then I toss in:

1. Das Boot.

2. Twelve O'Clock high. One of the best Command movies ever.

3. Battle of Britain. If you are at all into WW2 aviation this is it.

And if you can get these documentaries:

1. Die Frontshau (International Historic Films) Three movies (each 20-20 minutes) designed for company commanders/bn commanders on how to attack a village, and two seperate defensive situations made by the Germans in WW2 all with live combat footage. Subtitled.

2. Panzers Marsch. (Chronos Films) A number of short films two of which (training films) include defense of panzer against attacking infantry when you've lost your own infantry support. (A ton of great in-tank footage showing these drills) and how to employ a bn reserve in a counterattack against a Russian brakthrough. Again great footage and a great teaching fil even for today. Anyone who doubts we didn't lift our operational doctrine largely from the Germans needs only to watch this film.

3. World At War: Island Hopping. This is one of the best one hour WW2 documentaries on film. Pacific action.

4. Defense of Normandy (International historic Films) Covers German preparations at Normandy from their side (This was made during the war) and then has great german combat footage in Normandy, esp. SS and paras.

5. Lest we Forget. (Scholar's bookshelf?) Eisenhower had this made right after WW2 to commemorate the allied campaign in Europe, but then ordered all copies destroyed because he thought it was too negative. Excellent combat footage and funny narration.

6. Battle of San Pietro: (Frank Capra) A classic that needs little introduction. See the Americans get their asses handed to them in the San Pietro valley by a combination of the Germans the elements and Mark Clark.

7. Battleground: Remember this series in the fifties? Take an allied and an axis participant of battle xyz and have them narrate the film. There's a tape that has Holland, Crete, Cassino and Normandy on it. Crete and Cassino are two battles I am always studying. Great footage of each.

Sorry for the ramble...I'm sure I'm leaving out more. Cheers...

Los

[Guest KwazyDog]

There is also an extremely interesting doco they have been airing recently in Australia called Hitlers Henchmen. It profiles all of Hitles Generals and talks about their personalities, tactics, etc...very interesting.

Another being shown over here at the moment is Secrets of War (I think), which profiles different attritubets of the war. For instance, they had a very interesting show on camouflage last week, and how it was used and implemented. Hehe, some verying interesting shots in it of pillboxes painted as barns, etc.

Both are well worth watching

[Rick]

Since were talking about movies, does anyone know of any Vietnam films that aren't about grunts.

There are some Vietnam films that I like but they're all about infantry. Why can't filmmakers make something about Vietnam pilots or tankers or something? Of course the number of stories to tell about soe of these would be far fewer than infantry.

[CRourke]

Just to throw in a few of my own cents..

I've always been partial to the Longest Day.. ya, so its a bit holywood.. but I thought it was a much better treatment of the book it was based on than a Bridge Too Far... I really didn't think aBTF did a good job of getting the story in the book across, though I guess that wouldn't be a problem if you've read the book.

I liked a Midnight Clear.. but wow, talk about depressing, even for a war movie.

I loved Cross of Iron... maybe not always the best portrayal of how it was, but a darn good flick.

The Thin Red Line: I still don't understand this one. I like war movies. I like philosophical movies. I like historical movies. And yet I HATED a historical philosophical war movie. My advice to the director would be, if you can't get us to care about the characters (or even learn their names) when they're alive, then don't expect us to care when they die.

I liked Stalingrad, but I wouldn't say its the Das Boot of the ETO. And of course, SPR was incredible.

Los, those training films you mentioned all sound really intriguing.. Since I live in DC I should check for them at the library of congress.. I hear they have a "pretty good" selection of media there.

As for the vietnam movie thing.. didn't they make flight of the intruder into a movie? How about BAT 21? Obviously, vietnam didn't get same attention from hollywood that ww2 did. I think the only film made during the war was "The Green Berret's". It didn't really become on OK movie subject until the early 80's or so.. so you can imagine that they haven't gotten around yet to portraying tankers and what not. Actually, whats a good ww2 movie on armored forces??

Chris

[Marko]

Just on those two documentaries mentioned by KwazyDog, "Hitler's Henchmen" is mostly awful (sorry to disagree with you KD). Too sketchy on details and always "Hitler this, Hitler that" while losing focus of the subject (be it Rommel or Von Manstein) in question.

"Secrets of War", on the other hand, is simply marvellous. I wish I had recorded that series on video.

Favourite war film, "Paths of Glory" (it's not really about war), but favourite WWII film would be "Winter War". I wonder if they'll ever make that Sajer book into a film? If they do, I pray to the gods that they don't make Brad Pitt its star!

[Guest KwazyDog]

Not a prob Marko To be honest I only caught the last two before it ended, so maybe I got the wrong end of the stick. The Secrets of War is interesting though, isnt it! Gotta love those blow up tanks

[Wesy]

Another one which I forgot to mention, a very good war flick - Evacuation of Kiska (I can't remember if this was the verbatim title) It shows how the Japanese Army/Navy prepared and executed the evacuation of Kiska (as the name implies). Very good, it shows the extreme weather conditions and the swiftness in which the Japanese managed to get in and evacuate their garrison. The US forces found only a couple of dogs...It's in black and white probably made in the 60's. Very good if you can find it.

[PanzerShark]

I thought i told ya guys not to turn this into MOVIEREVIEW.COM, why is nobody listening to me?

Anywho, i really appreciate the time and effort of ya guys, and i'm sure i won't get bored during my 3-weeks vacation (if only BT had released CM during these weeks...sigh)

And Marko, i believe i have Secrets of War lying around somewhere. If i find them i can copy them for ya (but i'm NOT sure, so don't kill me if i don't.....or do kill me in a CM-scenario....but then BT should release it )

BT....i told Marko to kill me in CM when i don't have some videos...so i'm terribly sorry but ya might need to release CM in a week (gives me 2 weeks of vacation left)

Thx again,

PanzerShark

On a final note:

As a Vietnam movie i liked "Hamburger Hill" a lot.

[Simon Fox]

Interesting to read some peoples exalted opinion of SPR personally I found it powerful but deeply dissatisfying.

On the Vietnam War my favourite is "Odd Angry Shot" which is an aussie movie, yes we were there but unfortunately we weren't running it