Arty bug? (v1.03)

[TeAcH]

I noticed when plotting my moves and finding a target for my arty spotter, the barrage arrival delay will increase by one minute if you re-plot the target a couple of times. It may start out with a one minute delay for the first couple of target selections but then go on up from there to 2 and 3 mins if you change your mind and change targets.

Was this done intentionally in game to penalize the player for being indecisive about where he wants the arty delivered? If so, I guess I can live with that but I thought it was an orders phase. Why not penalize other units with a firing delay then if you bounce between several targets. Whats the rationale?

Perhaps this is a bug.

Can someone tell me?

Thanks

TeAcH

[Loki]

Its not a bug,if you shift your fire too far its like cancelling an attack.Any time you plot a barrage it takes a few minutes for the artillery to adjust and get their bearings.

You are allowed to shift your target slightly after you call in the strike.Your best bet for adjusting your fire is to ensure the line stays green to your new target.If it isn't green then you can't simply adjust,you would be cancelling the old and starting a new one.

[Hunter]

...and use the LOS tool to select your target, rather than just going straight to the Targetting tool.

Bruce

[Bullethead]

TeAcH said:

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Was this done intentionally in game to penalize the player for being indecisive about where he wants the arty delivered?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it was. This got brought up back in beta demo days. IIRC, at that time Charlse said that the act of clicking on a target for the spotter unit is the same as him sending a radio message to the FDC, telling them what numbers they need to crunch. So if you change targets, they have to start over.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>If so, I guess I can live with that but I thought it was an orders phase. Why not penalize other units with a firing delay then if you bounce between several targets. Whats the rationale?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, according to Charlse's explanation above, direct fire units don't need to crunch numbers so don't suffer the penalty.

Personally, I disagree with this feature. Sure, there's a work-around using the LOS tool as Hunter mentions. But if you can avoid the problem this way, then why have the problem at all?

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-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[TeAcH]

Loki:

Thanks. I understand the adjust firing delay vs picking a new target altogether. What I was commenting on was while you are in the orders phase and say, havent picked a target for the arty FO at all. You pick one and then see a delivery time of 1 min, then adjust it a bit OR change your strategy mid way through the orders phase a few times and the delay can and will increase to 2 mins (once a certain number of "1 minute targets" have been changed - usually 2 or 3).

Hunter:

True. LOS would suffice but I agree with Bulletheads last comment. If it can be circumvented via the LOS tool, whats the point?

Again, no big deal. It can be a little annoying when you like to really get into your orders phase readjust the arty target after you plot the moves of 20 units and you get an extra minute tagged on. I think some players may reload their whole orders phase to start all over when this happens.

Bullethead:

I agree. I'd like to see this reconsidered. Not a biggie tho.

TeAcH

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What I was commenting on was while you are in the orders phase and say, havent picked a target for the arty FO at all. You pick one and then see a delivery time of 1 min, then adjust it a bit OR change your strategy mid way through the orders phase a few times and the delay can and will increase to 2 mins (once a certain number of "1 minute targets" have been changed - usually 2 or 3).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I was talking about. Changing targets more than once in the orders phase makes the imaginary FDC guys start their number crunching all over, thus increasing the firing delay over what it was for the 1st target you picked and then abandoned.

Again, I don't like this. Especially when you incur the extra delay because you shifted your point of aim by 10-20m from the 1st place you put it this turn. There shouldn't be any effect for that at all because the FO wouldn't even bother to report such a minor shift. He couldn't control it that finely anyway.

On this subject, IMHO the "lime green line radius" for adjusting the MPI of an on-going fire mission is way too small. You can only move the MPI 40m or so and have it count as an adjustment--any further and you have to start over. Again, this is too small. The adjustment radius should be 100m at least, maybe up to 200m. This is because, due to the impact pattern and kill radius of the all the rounds landing, shifts less than this make no real difference in where lethal fragments are flying.

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-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[Guest TURBO]

Teach

I could be wrong but think about how artillery works. The spotter atached to the company calls in target which goes to regiment. If there are no previos requests it goes to battery. They start to lay in spotting round and while they are calling reg. to say its on the way spotter is calling in and saying wait I have a better target. I think this could lead to losing some time for the request.

[TeAcH]

Yeah (and thanks) but I thought all of that was being done in the action phase not the orders phase. Thats why you get ding'ed (delay-wise) when you adjust fire.

[This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Rattus]

The fire control procedures varied enourmously with Nationality - and also in the types of fire that could be requested. I guess that CM uses a generic model for all but it I do not think specifically models any particular system.

[Rattus]

The fire control procedures varied enourmously with Nationality - and also in the types of fire that could be requested. I guess that CM uses a generic model for all but it I do not think specifically models any particular system.

[Guest Michael emrys]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TeAcH:

Yeah (and thanks) but I thought all of that was being done in the action phase not the orders phase. Thats why you get ding'ed (delay-wise) when you adjust fire.

[This message has been edited by TeAcH (edited 08-01-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I understand what you are getting at, TeAcH, the Orders Phase conceptually occupies no time at all. It's just a period where the player is telling the computer what actions he wants to occur once time begins again (the Action Phase). It's during the Action Phase that the FO is actually making his call and the number crunching is going on at FDC. You should have unlimited opportunity to fiddle with the FO's targeting without penalty before you hit the GO button. If you change targeting in any subsequent Orders Phase, normal penalties would apply. Sounds reasonable to me.

Michael

[von Lucke]

What's also curious is that Spotter time seems to be slower than Game time: Click on an Arty Spotter and watch the time to firing counter tick down as the movie feature runs and compare the two. 1 minute of Arty time usually stretches into an extra 20 - 25 seconds of Game time...

[Bullethead]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>What's also curious is that Spotter time seems to be slower than Game time<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This seems to be a function of spotter quality and whether the spotter has an LOS to the target and/or a TRP. All of these variables affect how fast the spotter's timer runs.

Apparently, each spotter has a base time for shooting at TRPs and another (apparently twice as long) for non-TRP missions. These base delay times are determined by the spotter's nationality and whether he's controlling guns, mortars, or rockets.

The variables of spotter quality and LOS seem to affect how fast the spotter's timer runs with respect to game time. Quality doesn't have a very big effect, a matter of a few percent faster or slower than game time. LOS, however, has a HUGE effect. If the spotter doesn't have an LOS, his timer seems to run about 1/2 to 1/4 as fast as game time.

Hope that answers your question.

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-Bullethead

It was a common custom at that time, in the more romantic females, to see their soldier husbands and sweethearts as Greek heroes, instead of the whoremongering, drunken clowns most of them were. However, the Greek heroes were probably no better, so it was not so far off the mark--Flashman

[Wolfe]

From some testing I've done. Initial ETA (i.e. when 'Firing' first appears):

Ami 155mm...Reg

TRP LOS.....0:30

TRP no LOS..0:59

LOS.........2:00 (approx)

no LOS......4:30 (approx)

Ger 150mm...Reg

TRP LOS.....0:45

TRP no LOS..1:28

LOS.........2:30 (approx)

no LOS......5:50 (approx)

Both rounds have the same blast rating, BTW (198).

A Conscript German 150mm FO can who isn't using a TRP and has no LOS to the target takes ~12:00 mins to begin firing. An Elite one takes ~4:00 under the same conditions. So experience can matter a lot.

For Ger 150mm FO, the diff when using a TRP that is within LOS of the spotter is 0:27 vs. 1:29 (Eli vs. Con).

TRP not in LOS is 0:52 vs. 2:58.

LOS but no TRP is 1:52 vs. 6:59. (approx)

No LOS and no TRP is 4:04 vs. 12:03. (approx)

Note that when using the TRP (in or out of LOS), the ETA numbers above are *extremely* reliable in when the arty will begin firing (if all other variables kept the same). But when not using the TRP (either LOS or no LOS), the ETA will actually vary a lot, especially according to experience level. For example that 12:03 ETA for the Conscript 150mm spotter can vary by 30 secs or more! (maybe 45+ secs; I didn't extensively test this).

The interval between when rounds (erm - batteries) fire seems about the same irregardless of experience. Though I didn't test that one very much either.

When you can't see the target (regardless of TRP or not), the time to begin firing always takes twice as long as what the counter says. When within LOS, it's the exact time as indicated by the counter (again irrespective of TRP). Though the TRP will bring it down earlier and more accurately.

Also, as Bullethead said, this varies with weapon type. The German 81mm and 120mm Mortars both have the same ETA when using TRPs (0:22 secs when the TRP is in LOS for a Regular FO; 0:43 w/ TRP no LOS). It's 0:45 secs for all the rest of the German ordnance when using TRP within LOS; 1:28 w/ TRP no LOS. When not using a TRP, all of the different arty has its own unique ETA. (i.e. 75mm Reg no LOS, no TRP is ~6:30; 150mm is ~5:50, and 150mm Rockets are ~5:00). And even those numbers are variable because you're not using the TRP.

I hope that makes sense because now I think *I'm* confused!

- Chris

[Edit: gazillions of corrections; hopefully it's correct now. ]

[This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 08-02-2000).]