WHO GIVES A STUFF AND WHY

[Sailor Malan]

I can sympathise with new comers who see frequent requests to use the search. However I can also relate to people who've been here a while. I only discovered this forum in June, and already I have seen some topics 2 or 3 times (and not just old threads back from the grave). In many cases you wouldn't need to search, just reading the titles of the last 10 days posts would give a clue to some of the answers.

Having said which, this is easily the most active, and fun forum I know. Only occasionally do threads become inflamed!

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The conception of such a plan was impossible for a man of Montgomery's innate caution...In fact, Montgomery's decision to mount the operation ...[Market Garden] was as startling as it would have been for an elderly and saintly Bishop suddenly to decide to take up safe breaking and begin on the Bank of England. (R.W.Thompson, Montgomery the Field Marshall)

[Steve Clark]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>you are right, there are certainly a lot of issues that have not been discussed that are coming up now. And those are being discussed so that does not really pertain to this discussion, IMO.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I even saw you say 'hadn't thought about that' in response to splitting squads to dig holes.

BTW, whatever happened to our friend Skorzeny?

[GIJim]

I am a newbie to this game, but not to the gaming world. I want to say that this message board is very refreshing in it's almost complete lack of disrespect to newbies. In fact, the only disrespecting that goes around in here is between well established opponents. Quite humorous in fact. Keep the flames alive.

[Fionn]

Well Steve,

After Skorzeny got through telling us he was no fool and telling us that he "knew his stuff" and was better than us he decided to expose the unfathomed depths of his knowledge by posting a COMPLETE plagiarised article here and claiming it as his own.

Strangely enough, since this article has been posted here at least once before ( and quite possibly twice before) we recognised it, outed him as a plagiarising SOB and Andreas did the honours of writing to the author to let him know what happened.

Some folks also seem to want to give Skorzeny the benefit of the doubt but, unfortunately, he hasn't come forward with compelling evidence to suggest he wrote the piece. In fact, he's disappeared off the face of the earth.

personally I think the Gerbils have captured him and are inserting themselves up his butt in an effort to gain access to his autonomic nervous system so as to control him.

Some wackos OTOH believe he's disappeared because he was a liar and an asshole.. This "loony tunes theory" isn't gaining much support.

Remember, ALWAYS blame the gerbils. Chinchilladas ( or whatever the hell they're called) are just minor league evil-doers compared to gerbils.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Steve Clark:

BTW, whatever happened to our friend Skorzeny?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haven't heard anything yet. I guess he is currently receiving a much-warranted brain donation.

GIJim, those double negatives are very nice. 'Complete lack of disrespect', I like that.

Purple4Ever, the way I understand it, the search function looks for the words in the full text of the posts. So if you search for 'Sherman Panther Armor', you will get all those threads in which all or any of these three words appeared. (18, by the way, no date limit)

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Andreas

[Jeff Heidman]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Germanboy:

Jeff, if it took that form, I don't think there would be much of a problem. The last one however was "CM should have a roster: vote" which makes it harder to ignore for those of us who don't agree, and forces us to rehash the old arguments again and again.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing is, people want their soapbox. They want teh opportunity to say what they think. That is not going to change, period.

So even if someone does a search on "roster" and sees everything that has been said, they will still want to say their piece. Everyone else had a chance to, why should they be denied simply because it has already been done?

And you are not "forced" to react at all. You cna choose to ignore it, or even just register your vote and leave it at that. The very moment you feel a (justified) need to defend your position, you are involving yourself in the discussion, which means you no longer have the right to tell people not to have the discussion to begin with.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

But we can argue about this until the cows come home. Bottom-line IMO is that;

a) the abuse newbies are receiving is very much overstated by posts such as the one starting this thread

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this is plain incorrect. While the issue might be overdone, the reality is that there is definitely an attitude amongst some of the vets that there is nothing that someone who was not here throughout playtest and development has to add. Its all been done, the current system is the best possible, and questioning it is sometimes (even often) reacted to harshly.

I think the demand for "politeness" is a smokescreen to justify that attitude.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

there is no harm in searching, and if you want to have official input on a matter that has been discussed before at length, you may only get it by digging, b/c Steve and Charles or others have better things to do

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

c) you are right, there are certainly a lot of issues that have not been discussed that are coming up now. And those are being discussed so that does not really pertain to this discussion, IMO.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not necessarily the case, because that same attitude often pervades those discussions. The discussions often do not even get anywhere, because they are immediately swamped by people telling whoever had the audacity to question the status quo that they are wasting time, etc., etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

d) if someone is being told to search, he is effectively being told he should put his time into looking for an answer to his question instead of expecting others to use theirs for free.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shrug. Fair enough I suppose. I do not think anyone is expecting anyone to use their time for free. Most questions are asked in a totally innocent manner, and at face value. If your time is more valuable than it is worth to answer, then do not answer.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

e) if you come here with an attitude, you are in trouble. B/c most of the time those people have not more to offer than that, Skorzeny being a case in point.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, I agree completely.

However, there is no lack of attitude on this board to begin with. And I think some of the people with an attitude towards what they have decided CM is are just as much at fault as anyone else. Being a veteran of this board hardly makes someone immune from having a bad attitude. And many people use this "attitude" bit as an excuse to light into someone.

Of course, some people deserve exactly what they get.

Jeff Heidman

[David Aitken]

Okay, so everyone has the right to voice their opinion. But when someone revives a previously-exhausted topic, it's not simply a case of ignoring it if you're not interested in discussing it.

Without the voice of those who have already covered the topic, it's quite possible that the new discussion could reach a different conclusion. This in itself is no bad thing, but if there are good reasons for the original conclusion, the people who come to the new conclusion are only going to reinforce their own impractical take on the subject.

I'm not saying newbies are automatically wrong, but there are a good many subjects which, although regularly questioned, have good reasons for being the way they are. Longer-standing members of the CM community will have a greater understanding of the reasoning behind such subjects, and are therefore more or less obliged to pitch in when an old subject is brought up.

I think the solution would be this:

1) Do a search.

2) If your subject has been discussed previously, read up on it.

3) If you have something to add, do it in the original thread.

4) If the original thread is locked, leave the subject alone.

I would emphasise (3), because recently I have seen newish threads replaced by even newer threads, for no reason whatsoever. I think this should be a forum rule, as it would ensure discussions remain in one place and arguments do not have to be continually repeated. It would also prevent the reignition of flamewars as per (4).

Does this seem reasonable?

David

[Hakko Ichiu]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jeff Heidman:

The thing is, people want their soapbox. They want teh opportunity to say what they think. That is not going to change, period.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once you get up on your soapbox you make yourself a target. Brace yourself -- especially when you address a contentious issue such as rosters. I don't see what the acrimony of the roster thread has to do with the general level of civility in the forum, esp. wrt newbie faqs.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

I think this is plain incorrect. While the issue might be overdone, the reality is that there is definitely an attitude amongst some of the vets that there is nothing that someone who was not here throughout playtest and development has to add. Its all been done, the current system is the best possible, and questioning it is sometimes (even often) reacted to harshly.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And yet, we have seen several new issues raised and debated (mostly in a civil manner) since the release. Some of these have already been included in a patch, e.g., HMG effectiveness, which was IIRC, started by a relative newbie, Talenn.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

However, there is no lack of attitude on this board to begin with. And I think some of the people with an attitude towards what they have decided CM is are just as much at fault as anyone else. Being a veteran of this board hardly makes someone immune from having a bad attitude. And many people use this "attitude" bit as an excuse to light into someone.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it exists; we are a collection of humans (with the possible exceptions of Gerbilboy and Ho Chi Shaw, who may or may not be field gray rodents). Yet I would concur with those who say that the overall level of civility on this board is high, especially when compared to other game BBSs or Usenet.

And anybody, now matter how battle hardened a grognard, who thinks that CM is immutable holy writ just has to read Appendix D of the manual.

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Ethan

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Das also war des Pudels Kern! -- Goethe

[Lawyer]

I spent a lot of time on the Combatsim EAW forum before getting immersed in CM. They are a very friendly and supportive group who still welcome newcomers to an old game as their community changes. They love to talk about everything under the sun, even if it's been beat to death.

Because so many people on the EAW forum love to help, I never noticed a "do a search" response to a question, although they have the same search program used here at CM. Eventually, I learned to stop reading the EAW threads that went somewhere I had been before in order to save my own time. But somebody always performs the help function for the same old questions.

Indeed, the EAW forum has one guy named JWC, who is the most patient and knowledgeable person I have ever encountered regarding assistance on a single game. His help posts to newbies are incredibly lucid and detailed, and he will spend the time all over again for the next inquiry on the same subject.

JWC's answers got so famous that the forum administrator uses his "greatest hits" explanations in various posts as the basis for a fine guide to common "how to" questions on EAW. When one comes, many oldtimers just direct the new guy to JWC's canned explanations at the top of the forum. It's basically an FAQ not billed or presented as such. And it is regularly updated.

Anyway, I just posted a request on the EAW forum for JWC to get into CM and join this forum. If he does, newbies and oldies alike will get a superb resource.

I like the CM forum. Very knowledgeable and some fine humor. Folks here have generally helped me. When reading this thread, however, I thought immediately about the legendary JWC as the perfect solution to the question at hand.

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You have the right to remain silent.

Anything you say can be used against you....

[Joe Shaw]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>we are a collection of humans (with the possible exceptions of Gerbilboy and Ho Chi Shaw, who may or may not be field gray rodents). Yet I would concur with those who say that the overall level of civility on this board is high,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh yeah! Who says? So's your old man. I know you are but what am I?

And adult too.

Joe

[Red Devils]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pacestick:

I am a bit perplexed and I am hoping someone can enlighten me.

I constantly see posts from junior members of the forum asking for some advice or seeking an answer to some question on a million and one different things mostly related to the wonderful game of CM.

The vast majority of these posts invoke responces that I would call intollerant and in some cases, downright insulting from people who seem deeply offended that they are forced to read these posts more than once.

It appears that asking something that has been discussed in the past is a terrible and wasteful thing to do.

Is the cyberspace used in this manner gone forever and can never be reused? The constant asking of and answering questions of a similar nature has some unknown detrimental effect on the ozone layer?

No,my guess is it makes the old and bold here feel important to chide the "newbies" for wasting their valuable time in having to answer a question already answered.

Or perhaps the ones who chide the newbies for being to lazy to do a search are in fact to lazy themselves to sort the wheat from the chaff in the way they filter the forums content for the posts that are of interest them alone.

The problem from my viewpoint in doing a search to see what has been discussed to death beforehand is that the result will invariably be old news. Most people are more interested in what applies to version 1.03 and want instant and relevant feedback than

reading some old discussion that may have pertained to the beta, the gold demo, version 1.01 and so on.

If this has been discussed before my apologies, I did not do a search for the same reason I call directory assistance when I need a phone number rather than looking up a phone book. I am just too damm lazy

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the best post I have seen yet on this site. I also found it funny that three of the people who flame newbies (and members!) the most responded to it.

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I'm sorry, we haven't the

facilities to take all of you prisoner. Was there anything else?

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Red Devils:

I also found it funny that three of the people who flame newbies (and members!) the most responded to it.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nice style!

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Andreas

[Mannheim Tanker]

Originally posted by Red Devils: "I also found it funny that three of the people who flame newbies (and members!) the most responded to it."

LOL! If you consider my recent responses to newbies flames, then I have no problem with getting flamed. I just thought that Pacestick missed the point of the FAQ and request for searches. I'm not advocating that people don't bring up old arguments. I was really pointing out that they might get better answers to their questions if they searched first. Many of these threads contain a series of answers that will be more detailed than any single post they may get by starting a new thread.

That was dealing with newbie questions...as far as opinions on topics go...well, you know the age-old adage As far as I can recall, I've never told anyone to NOT post their opinions. If I have ever been less than civil to any poster (member or newbie alike), I'd like for them to step forward. I've never intentionally slighted anyone, except for maybe the hamsters.

[Simon Fox]

Whenever I come to the Forum and see a whole pile of new threads asking questions that have been answered a 'thousand times' before I get all twisted up and rage filled. Afflicted with inarticulate apoplexy. I am totally incapacitated with fury and incapable of applying even the most moderate heat to the unfortunate.

This is because I am consumed with an overwhelming compunction to administer a viscious piscatorial beating to GUACHI!

The capricious Mr Guachi: dilletante of the FAQ, purveyor of fanciful databases, industrious in all tasks until they are 80% complete and then stricken with indolence.

Now I was sure I had a rock cod lying around here somewhere, nasty spines on those buggers......

[Aussie Smith]

In a nutshell - the simple statement to apply to this thread is - "If you've seen it before and you cannot be bothered answering it - don't"

I mean really we're all Adults here - be it young or old - I'm sure we've the wisdom to apply common reason to why someone is posting something - be it seen before or no - its someone seeking help and if I can I for one will help them.

- Gets off his soapbox which for all intents and purposes looks like a bogged Sherman Tank

Craig

[Splinty]

As a newbie I'd just like to say that everyone who's replied to my posts has been very helpful and polite,I appreiciate that alot and have already put some of them into use. (they're working too!)

Thanks Folks!

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Nicht Schiessen!!