Adavanced targeting for stupid tankers

[The Commissar]

So heres the story - my tank is riding up on a hill set on "Hunt". About 300 metres from it my tanks sees a Sherman, and to it's flank about 200 metres away it notices a machine gun. The Sherman commander soils his trousers, sets a smoke screen and hits reverse.

I know a lost opportunity when I see one, and this isn't it. My tank can easily catch up and dispatch this pesky Sherman. So I set the tank to fast move while it nears the smoke screen, and to "hunt" when it crosses it for the Sherman. Everything is going well, although I don't have visibility to the Sherman, it has no where to run.

When my tank reaches hunt however, the gunner rotates the cannon and pounds away on the machine gun WHILE passing through the smoke screen. The Sherman uses the opportunity to penetrate my side turret and bye-bye tank.

I have seen this happen several times, both with the enemy and with my own tanks. Can something be done so the my tank is told to "keep a lookout for the enemy tank which it can no longer see, and not target measely infantry/mortars/machine guns which can't do it any damage anyway"? That way, the tank will be ready for the enemy and will not be distracted.

Just a suggestion.

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[L.Tankersley]

While I feel your pain, I'm not sure this should be changed. It would be nice, but while it's easy to say "make this better" it's a lot harder to implement (and to figure out all the ramifications of the change).

I think the real problem here is one of mindset. CM is nota first-person game, or a tank combat simulator, or anything at all like that. It's very seductive to encounter a situation such as you describe and think "Ok, I'm going to speed up there and then move through the smoke until I can see and kill that pesky Sherman." But all you're really doing is telling your tank to move from point A to point B. You are notthe tank commander. There is no real-world analogue to the CM player; you have access to information none of your units could individually have, and can make decisions and issue very specific orders to your units based on this information. This gives the player a lot of power, but also leads to frustration such as you describe.

I think the best way to avoid this sort of frustration is to think about your role as giver-of-orders differently. Your primary job isn't to conn every unit individually (although you do in effect have to do this, it's not your primaryfunction); instead, your job is to place your units in positions and situations where they can win the battle for you, using their own TacAI. Unfortunately, right now that means not assuming that your units have any memory of events from previous turns, among other things. So from your tank crew's perspective, they are told to drive forward into some smoke. With no memory of what has gone before, it makes sense to them to turn and pour some fire into that pesky MG position until some more attractive target shows up.

And from a reality argument (vice a game situation argument) standpoint, chasing the Sherman through the smoke might have been a pretty foolish thing to do. Did the tank crew know there was nowhere for the Sherman to go? Could they be sure that Sherman wasn't packing a 76mm? Could there have been a Jackson or a 90mm gun lurking back there somewhere? Sure, maybe youknow there wasn't, but your tank crew probably wasn't so sure. Giving orders to focus exclusively on one particular zone or target type is cashing in on information and certainties you the player have that your troops almost certainly lacked.

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Leland J. Tankersley

[This message has been edited by L.Tankersley (edited 09-19-2000).]

[Wayne]

Was it possible to target the Sherman even though your tank did'nt have a line-of-sight? I've targeted units that are out of sight from the beginning of the move but when I move into line-of-sight, my tank will fire at it.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength who teaches my hands to war and my fingers to fight.

[tailz]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

Everything is going well, although I don't have visibility to the Sherman, it has no where to run.

When my tank reaches hunt however, the gunner rotates the cannon and pounds away on the machine gun WHILE passing through the smoke screen. The Sherman uses the opportunity to penetrate my side turret and bye-bye tank.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL... actually Com, you're right, I was backed into a corner... nothing left to do but the full speed charge and try to get my turret turned as I roared by with the pedal to the metal.

[The Commissar]

I figured you would be lurking here tailz, trying to catch any tidbit of precious information about my armor...you would of destroyed my tank if you hadn't driven into a squad with panzerfausts

Anyway, you make several good points Tankersky, I see what you mean. I guess it's somewhat like this IRL so I just have to deal with it. Oh well, I'll try to manuever the tank so he doesn't see the machine gunner next time

Cheers!

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[Slapdragon]

I don't think the AI is always at fault, but I was stalking an armored car with an M18 when the car pulls behind a house and woosh, the turret returns to zero and the hunt has it drive right on by to get creamed from the rear. Very frustrating.

[Los]

I have to agree with those who feel the real flaw lies with you the commander in ordering such a bonehead move. Even if you had kept the barrel pointed straight ahead you would porbably have been popped by the Sherman as you came through the smoke, having given up whatever range or terrain or armor advantage you had from your first position. And when you set the command for hunt you basically told the tank to kill any enemy it sees, knowing that it already had LOS to the MG? Don't blame the AI for putting the tank in that situation. Don't be in such a rush to get frags.

Los

[The Commissar]

Actually Los, this was a night mission. In snow. Visibility - 15-20 metres max.

My tank - a Tiger.

I did not have much to worry about since the Sherman backed up a good way and it had a 75mm gun. I had killed most of my enemie's troops. No bazookas of any sort. So my move was justified, even if I did not consider the consequences of the "Hunt" command.

BTW - The first "scenario" I listed is what I predicted would happen (predicting too late that is). Tailz surprised me however (which was his desired effect) and drove straight past me, which resulted in a very interesting confrontaion.

My tiger did not turn the turret fast enough so he did not get any hits, while the Sherman kept popping rounds off my turret. Finally, with his 3rd or 4th shot he damaged the gun, but at this point the Sherman drove next to a "Rough" where a team with 2 panzershrecks was hiding.

The team saved my tank from destruction and now it's in the process of useing it's remaining machine guns on what's left of Tail'z force

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"...Every position, every meter of Soviet soil must be defended to the last drop of blood..."

- Segment from Order 227 "Not a step back"

[This message has been edited by The Commissar (edited 09-19-2000).]

[Los]

"Actually Los, this was a night mission. In snow. Visibility - 15-20 metres max."

Ok hmmm...then how do we reconcile that tidbit of information with the first line of your story on your first post, that your tank id's a sherman at 300 yds and a MG crew at 200 yds? Or did night fall and the snow storm start after you gave the hunt command?

aside from that oddity...

If your visibility is only 15-20 meters max then you are taking even a bigger risk since you are moving through smoke against a stationary Sherman (they only run back out of danger they don't haul ass for ever, and normally keep pointed in the direction they came) , and you are going to fight the Sherman at a range where he has every advantage (turret turn speed, ROF and a gun that's equally lethal at that range.) At 25m it's whoever gets off the first shot, period. You should hardly have been surprised at the result.

Cheers...

Los

[This message has been edited by Los (edited 09-19-2000).]

[JoePrivate]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>"Actually Los, this was a night mission. In snow. Visibility - 15-20 metres max."

Ok hmmm...then how do we reconcile that tidbit of information with the first line of your story on your first post, that your tank id's a sherman at 300 yds and a MG crew at 200 yds? Or did night fall and the snow storm start after you gave the hunt command?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually this is Commissar's third version of his 'story' since yesterday. The truth is out there

[tailz]

LOL... heat of the moment for Commissar, go easy on him. I can only imagine the Tiger commander filling his leiderhosen as this Sherman suddenly bursts out of the smoke and snow at full tilt, heading for his weak butt-end... it has been a very ugly little close quarters, nighttime, snowfall, pitched action. I think he will agree that a Vickers at close range is a nasty bit of work. Actually, I doubt I would've tried my high speed pass, except for the fact that when the Sherman reversed behind the smoke, the Tiger swung back to the mg. Looked at my dwindling options and figured my superior turret speed was the only whole card in my hand... damn schreks!!

[Ari Maenpaa]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by The Commissar:

My tank - a Tiger.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

With very slow turret, tiger suffers badly under tacAI's command. It's horrible in close combat and even on longer ranges often loses 'the first shot opportunity' to it's opponent.

I believe that historically the German soldiers could pretty well compensate slow turret traversing speed with smart aiming procedures. It's just that without the ability to anticipate tacAI makes turret speed a MAJOR factor to decide combat results. This gives considerable advantage to allied tanks. Still the different turret speeds make CM much richer game.

Once again I would like to point out that CM's current turret speed setting for panther and king tiger is too slow if compared to reality. Hopefully Charles fix this in the next patch.

Ari

[willmontgomery]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by L.Tankersley:

There is no real-world analogue to the CM player; you have access to information none of your units could individually have, and can make decisions and issue very specific orders to your units based on this information. This gives the player a lot of power, but also leads to frustration such as you describe.

I think the best way to avoid this sort of frustration is to think about your role as giver-of-orders differently. Your primary job isn't to conn every unit individually (although you do in effect have to do this, it's not your primaryfunction); instead, your job is to place your units in positions and situations where they can win the battle for you, using their own TacAI. Unfortunately, right now that means not assuming that your units have any memory of events from previous turns, among other things. So from your tank crew's perspective, they are told to drive forward into some smoke. With no memory of what has gone before, it makes sense to them to turn and pour some fire into that pesky MG position until some more attractive target shows up.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems to me that it is reasonable to hope/ask for a TacAI that credits individual units with a memory of things that those units have themselves seen on a previous turn. Now that may be very difficult, and I am not criticizing BTS for not doing a better job, because I am not qualified to have an opinion in general, and I did not see the circumstances of this particular battle. Targeting an out-of-sight unit with the hope that it soon will come into sight goes a long way to cure this particular apparent ill. But on principle units should have memories of their own "experiences". Of course for all I know, maybe they already do.

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by willmontgomery:

It seems to me that it is reasonable to hope/ask for a TacAI that credits individual units with a memory of things that those units have themselves seen on a previous turn. Now that may be very difficult, and I am not criticizing BTS for not doing a better job, because I am not qualified to have an opinion in general, and I did not see the circumstances of this particular battle. Targeting an out-of-sight unit with the hope that it soon will come into sight goes a long way to cure this particular apparent ill. But on principle units should have memories of their own "experiences". Of course for all I know, maybe they already do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know for sure either way, but I strongly suspect that they do not (other than fairly trivial information such as "how much ammo do we have left?" and "what's my morale?" The strategic planning AI is different; it almost certainly at least remembers things like major goals and subgoals, and mayremember specifics about enemy units even when they're no longer spotted (although it might just rely on the "last seen here" generic symbols for that).

It would be nifty to have every unit track lots of data about what it individually knows or remembers, but I think it's impractical from a couple of standpoints. First, it could amount to a pretty substantial resource hit in terms of both raw storage and processing, and second there would of necessity be manifold increases to the complexity of the TacAI (which increases in complexity are far from guaranteed to improve the player's perception of the capability of the AI).

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Leland J. Tankersley

[Bruno Weiss]

Ah alas, we find that our technological desires have outdistanced abilities. The AI as it were, any AI for that matter, cannot think in the abstract. In the scenario situation described above, the player was absolutely correct, and so was his tank AI, the difference being, the player could think in the abstract, the tank AI could not. When the tank received the "hunt" command, it did not "know" that the Sherman was there, it only knew it had a confirmed hostile contact, the machine gun and it then set about to do exactly what it was told to do, engage the enemy. The player ofcourse, "knew" the Sherman was there, and didn't have anywhere to go and that the tank would if it kept going, run into the Sherman. The tank did not know that! The player here is in a God position, the tank is not. Remember, the AI cannot out think you, it can only do what a computer can do, which is, precisely what it is told to do. Twenty years down the road, you'll be telling your Grandchildren how obsolete these things were, but for now it is you who is superior.

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"Mer zuerst schiesst hat mehr von Leben"[br]

Bruno

[Doug Beman]

L Tank, your synopsis (izzat the right term?) the role of the CM player is, IMHO, the most succinct and conceptually acute one I've seen in a long time.

There now, does your ego feel better?

DjB

[L.Tankersley]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug Beman:

L Tank, your synopsis (izzat the right term?) the role of the CM player is, IMHO, the most succinct and conceptually acute one I've seen in a long time.

There now, does your ego feel better?

DjB<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awww, shucks, t'weren't nothin'. ::stirs dirt with toe::

Waaaaaaaait a minute...... you setting me up for a fall? I'll kick your butt and prove I'm right!!

Or something like that.

...I'm loitering here at work, waiting for traffic to die down. I think I'll go do some crimes (maybe I'll eat sushi and not pay).

[update: I paid for the sushi.]

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Leland J. Tankersley

[This message has been edited by L.Tankersley (edited 09-20-2000).]