Tiger Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 There's no one way to do it. I've received a number of e-mails asking how to do this or that or how to do it all. There is no one way and it's not really easy to explain. The best advice is to obtain a good paint program (not just ms paint) and fiddle with it for a long time till you get comfortable. Learn to use masks, texture fills, gradients, colour fills, hue changes of existing colours, copying and pasting parts of masked images, transparency, overlays, etc. etc. etc. It's taken me, on and off, over a year to learn alot of this to the minute degree of proficeincy I posess. Also, I know some of my mods are not 100% grognard-approved historically accurate, like this colour wasn't used, that pattern wasn't used, etc. Well I've looked at many books, many in b&w, many in colour, and I can honestly say that there does not appear to be any one way all vehicles were painted. It depended on what was available and how it was applied and how long the vehicle has been in combat. Historically accurate is fine but I don't believe that exists in a 100% pure form, just my opinion, I'm probably wrong. I do try and stick with browns, khaki, sand-yellow, gray, pale greens, and stay away from red, orange, blue, pink, purples. Anyhow, I'm starting work on some hi-res shermans (all of them probably) since I found another book at my local bookstore with some excellent colour photos of WW II tanks owned by modern day collectors (and it was only $6.99 for a 180-some-odd page book). I've also found some great textures/colour pictures of t-34s for future reference . The rough finish is going to look really good.' Just spent 5 hours trying to do a really good hetzer and wound up with nothing worth keeping. Sometimes it is very frustrating. -johnS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 john, I must admit I was very skeptical of your work at first. Because that woodland-camo mod and other ahistoric things just completely turned me off. But recently I must really commend you for your latest releases. you still have some glitches, like the double cross on the Tiger rearturret stowage box etc., but the new mods are definitely good-looking now, even though not completely authentic. Trying to get the colors and camo schemes just right is an entire hobby just for itself, a cross-section between history grog and modeler. There are many many books just about "Panzer Colors", and if you are striving for that real authentic look, suggest you take a look at these - however I would be careful with post-war, modern time reenactor, museum and active vehicles color pictures, because more often than not the vehicles are restored with wrong colors. As to the reason why there was such a myriad of german camoflage, I had a good source on that, and when the units were given official freedom etc. as to the schemes (the SS started this earlier than the Wehrmacht I think), but unfortunately I can't find it right now. What I do remember is that standardization of schemes was only kept to organizational levels as low as company level, id est, all vehicles of one company were usually of the same general scheme / design of camoflage. However more often it was standardized within Abteilungen or Regiments. now, that's what I call camoflage: keep up the good work, yours sincerely, M.Hofbauer (btw, jpzr or who it was that suggested the light reddish hue touch is right) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted September 1, 2000 Author Share Posted September 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>you still have some glitches, like the double cross on the Tiger rearturret stowage box <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> glitch? don't think so.... was taken from an actual photograph. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Because that woodland-camo mod <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> woodland camo? -johnS [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 08-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SS Peiper Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: john, I must admit I was very skeptical of your work at first. Because that woodland-camo mod and other ahistoric things just completely turned me off. But recently I must really commend you for your latest releases. you still have some glitches, like the double cross on the Tiger rearturret stowage box etc., but the new mods are definitely good-looking now, even though not completely authentic. yours sincerely, M.Hofbauer (btw, jpzr or who it was that suggested the light reddish hue touch is right)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tiger I think your Mods are coming along great. There are a number of very good books that show good camo for the Germans. The first that comes to mind is a set of 3 books called Panzer colors by Squadron/Signal Publications, another good book is Tanks of World War 2 by Jean Restayn also a new book that just came out is Panzers in Normandy. Here is a good web site that have some good camo also http://members.xoom.com/KievPapa/ Keep up the good work SS Peiper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 M Hofbauer wrote: > now, that's what I call camoflage I beg to differ! The principle of camouflage is not to make a vehicle look as close as possible to its background. It is to break up the outline. Camouflage is only a big deal from a distance - if you're close up, it doesn't really matter whether a vehicle is camouflaged or not, you'll see it anyway. At a distance, if you're trying to pick a vehicle out from the scenery, what matters is not minute texture work, it is overall paintwork. Of course, the first principle of camouflage is, stay still. The second principle is, break up your outline. This is most effectively done with a bold two-tone camouflage scheme, making it difficult for the enemy to identify your vehicle as being a vehicle, and then as being a particular kind of vehicle. Intricate camouflage textures look awfully impressive, but they're not actually the most effective kind. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 yes yes I had rephrased that into "unusual" since I came upon those too but that window collapsed and I had to re-paste it from notepad and that was the original version...you win... a very nice picture...hmmm 323 that's usually third company...but what unit? as to the woodlands camo, I don't know which vehicle it was, maybe a Kingtiger, problem is you deleted all your images in the old posts so that when one looks through the archives he doesn't find your pics anymore... dobra noc! M.Hofbauer ------------------ "Please fix!!! or do somefink" (CPT S.) [This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 08-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted September 1, 2000 Author Share Posted September 1, 2000 dunno. Fox recently did a leafy woodland camo kingtiger that's posted on Madmatt's Combat Hq site. Good looking but not really authentic. I liked it. -johnS ~ps, see the double crosses on the rear stowage box above? So nyyyyyahhh!! ~pps thanks for the link SS Peiper [This message has been edited by Tiger (edited 08-31-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 ok David, the netting doesn't break up the camoflage ebnough for you? so is this more to your liking: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SS Peiper Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 Tiger I just saw your Panther A, all I can say is WOW that looks great!!! SS Peiper Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntg84 Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 What about that new Tiger. It looks amazing, but can you show me a pic of a Western Front Tiger in plain Panzer Grey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Måkjager Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 Hi M Hofbauer, that pict of the Tiger with the double crosses on the rear stowage bin is a vehicle belonging to the Schwer Panzer-Abteilung 503, at that time it was based to the south of the Kursk bulge in June 1943.You will notice that the stowage bin is taken from a PzIII / IV. This unit had a very successful career, destroying over 1700 Allied tanks and nearly 2000 cannons( no mean feat). Indeed this unit had some of the most successful Panzer Aces going of which the top dog was Feldwebel Knispal with a tally of 162 enemy tank kills (24 more than M. Wittman). Turning to the subject of paint....It is very very difficult to determine what shade of paint is being used from b/w photos, the more so considering that there were a number of sources from which the paint was obtained(german and captured) , the method of application, how much it was thinned and with what. At the moment i am building a 1/76th scale model of a early Tiger 1 in service with sPzAbt 505 , i want to paint it in a scheme that appears in 2 reputable books....but they both give a different colour ( red brown/green) for the camouflage oversprey on the base yellow.Seeing as there was an element of chaos in the production of all war material in Germany during the war , the freedom of units to apply their own schemes , use of captured paint , it seems reasonable to me that you cannot nail down a particular colour shade and say use this and only this.I have talked to Hilary Doyle ( Tom Jentz's co-author) regarding paint/camouflage as applied to german wwii vehicles vis a vis scale models. He informed me that the variations in paint shade ( choclate brown/ red brown/pinky brown , dark green/ olive green/ pea green) was a fact and that nobody could really argue that my colours on my model vehicle was wrong. I think Tiger (John) is using his references to bring this to our community with his mods, which reguire hard work and time to do....( i'm trying to do my own...and i have the bruises on my head to prove it ) I can understand the Grogs viewpoint as well....when you see a colour plate of a vehicle ...it kinda gets locked down in you memory...hence when something different appears it causes conflict with what you "Know". That is not to say that either one or the other is right or wrong....its just all part of the human condition. Respectfully yours Måkjager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 Don't let them bug ya John, I've learned over the years that the definition of "historically accurate" depends on what book they've read. (not a shot folks, it's a fact) I like your work, keep doing it I just sent matt a camo hetzer which I'm sure will have people screaming. But it's accurate I don't think folks should pick on mod makers for the small stuff, especially when it's a questionable niggle. You don't like it that way, try your own hand at it, no really, try if your's looks better, I'm not proud, I'll download it in a heartbeat. ------------------ Pzvg "Murphy's law of combat #10, never forget your weapon is made by the lowest bidder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Lott Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 This is the mod I want to see! You wouldn't want you're whole force to look like this though. hmmmmm... we've got random face textures, why not random vehicle textures? Plenty of space on my hard drive.... nick [This message has been edited by Nick Lott (edited 09-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 I love this pic as a great reminder of why painting your motorcycle with zebra stripes will NOT make you more visible. Which way is this ship moving? How fast? Not so easy to tell in your bucking torpedo bomber... ------------------ Sounds like 100% weapons-grade bolonium to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianc Posted September 1, 2000 Share Posted September 1, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>hmmmmm... we've got random face textures, why not random vehicle textures?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's a very interesting question. I think a great addition would be a kind of randomizer that would select different texture sets for the same vehicle. This would require a different naming convention than CM1 has however. I'm sure Steve would pull his hair out at the prospect of creating more than one texture set for a particular vehicle, but if this hook were built into the code, it would allow for great graphic variability with user-made mods. Maybe something to think about for CM2? Like they haven't got enough already... ianc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 My mom made me wear pants like that (ship) when I was a kid. As a result I am a recluse that sits at home and plays CM. The Panzer (IV?) above was officially called the ChiaPanzerKampfWagon. Tiger, I enjoy your mods, historical or not. Is there a place we can see them all or a place from which we could download them? ------------------ Ow, my leg! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 "hmmmmm... we've got random face textures, why not random vehicle textures?" Also another thing to remember guys is that peoples faces are small whereas vehicles as far as VRAM is concerned is expensive. Id suggest that it would be a great idea if we all owned 32mb cards, but Id imagine people on less than 16 would end up having their textures scaled down. Babra, I love that pic!! That is about the most effective ship camo Ive seen, generally they dont do a hell of a lot [This message has been edited by KwazyDog (edited 09-01-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzvg Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 Hehe Nick I was thinking of doing that one actually Since you have Panzer Colors, check the hetzer in the color plate on page 80, Madmatt should be releasing my hetzer mod soon (note, my mod isn't exactly to the plate, I've only been using the paint program for a month now, It's much easier with oils) ------------------ Pzvg "Murphy's law of combat #10, never forget your weapon is made by the lowest bidder Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 KwazyDog wrote: > Babra, I love that pic!! Half-close your eyes and you see just how effective it is. Quite amazing. David ------------------ There's a splinter in your eye, and it reads REACT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted September 2, 2000 Share Posted September 2, 2000 I agree David Can you imagine at 15000 yards how hard it would be to get a descent angle that thing is heading, which of course is all important at that range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barndoor Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 Hi, I'm pretty new to CM in general but have been downloading mods like a lunatic. There are some pretty smart looking tanks to play with. What I would like to say is that I have two books on German Tank Camoflage that I should be able to scan and send to serious MOD makers. They contain not only photos but artist impressions of camo patterns. These may or may not be new to you but they are here if you want them. Email me at abarnett@lineone.net and I'll get back to you as soon as I can ------------------ "Be careful You'll have some buggers eye out with that." King Harold, Hastings, 1066 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pathfinder Posted September 8, 2000 Share Posted September 8, 2000 hehe, if I could figger out which bmp are the faces I'd do a smilie and hamster mod BTW Tiger, you do most excellent work, historical or not, keep up the good work! ------------------ unca pathy will show ya the path, if only he could find it himself! [This message has been edited by pathfinder (edited 09-07-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger Posted September 8, 2000 Author Share Posted September 8, 2000 That's wierd Pathy, I was thinking about doing that hamster face this morn -johnS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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