Questions(Beyond The Beachhead)

[Guest Sgt Morgue]

Mike Zeares , check your source again . Mounted US cavalry is organized in troops and squadrons , not companies and battalions, if the web page you refer to says that it was companies of cavalry then they don't know the US cavalry.

[Los]

Ok regarding extra officers. Your main reasons to have them is for either forming additional manuever elements or as replacements for leader casualties.

First, your company and battalion commanders, while they normally don't control any troops themselves, can take charge of any units within their radius. (Even of the PL is still alive). This gives you the ability to form extra manuever elements/reserve groups or to fill in when there are casualties amongst your PLs. Also in the scenario editor, you can add extra platoons, and then delete all thei squads to give you just leaders. While a PL will not control a rifle squad as long as his original PL is still alive, though he can atach and detach any crew unit (mortar, bazooka, MG) that's within his radius.

And anyway maybe one should concentrate on perserving the officers they have rather than knowing you can always plug another in there since leader loss (and it's concequences) is a very real issue in actual battles of this scale.

Los

[Guest Zigster]

I'd Foxtrot with anyone named Chesty, even if she did chew cigars and spit shrapnel

Hell, I might even Tango (but I'm no Romeo)...

[Mike Zeares]

Sgt. Morgue, here's my source:

http://www.metronet.com/~harryb/1st_team/7th_rgmt/

Note that the page owner acknowledges help from the 1st Cav Museum for the historical parts of his page. He also refers to the troop/squadron designations, so he's fully aware that they are called such today. Were they in 1876? I've read many accounts from the period (and Civil War) that use company, not troop. I've also seen that same list of the troops/companies with Custer in print, but I don't have any of those sources handy. Anyway, the upshot is that there was no J troop/company at the Little Bighorn. This is like the origin of the phrase "whole 9 yards." Everybody's got a different story, depending on their branch of service. None of them are correct, likely.

-- Mike Zeares, ex-tanker, for what it's worth. That's 19E, not one of those fancy-pants 19-Kilos.

[Guest Sgt Morgue]

Mike Z

i am also an ex-tanker (11 echo in my days).

to answer your question about, if in 1876 it was troops or companies , in 1876 the 7th cav was all troops , because they were all mounted , the only time cavalry is refered to as companies is when they are dismounted as most of the 7th cav are now (mounted today means that the tanks or helicopters that they use intergrated part of the unit cav squadron). i spent two years as a member of the 5th cav , our 1st and 2nd battalions(which had companies) were dismounted cav with the 1st cavalry division , i was in the 3th squadron (which had troops)and was the mounted (acavs and tanks)

and part of the 9th infantry division. i was also a member of the 2nd cav regiment which had A through M troops(skipping J). When you read about the 7th cav and it refers to them as companies it means they are leg cav or the same as infantry.

[Goanna]

The L company is named Lima in my recollection and I remember asking my DI (one of WAY too many questions I asked as a skeeter wing) why there was no J company and was told it was because it was too close to I company in writing. We used to print B's in chalk, paint and every other damn thing all over our gear during moves, and some of our guys penmanship wasn't the greatest (let alone their reading), so it makes sense.

Marine's probably only go up to H or something like that since even A B C's are probably even optional.

[Mike Zeares]

Sgt. Morgue;

Well, I should know better than to argue with an old trooper. Not that I'm wrong, just that they're so hard-headed it's a waste of time.

FYI, the 7th Cav is mostly mounted today. 1st, 3rd, and 4th Squadrons are divisional cav squadrons and are a mix of air and ground cav (1st has M1A2's). 2nd Battalion is a mechanized infantry outfit in 1st Cav Division, but the Bradley is an integral part of their unit, so you could consider them "mounted" too, I suppose.

By the way, what the hell is an 11 Echo, anyway? Doesn't sound like any kind of tanker to me. Sounds like some kind of groundpounder variant. Hell, even those sad-sack cav scouts are 19 series (Delta). An ACAV ain't a tank, Jack. Admit it: you're an earth pig!

-- Mike Zeares

P.S. your story about Custer and J troop is still horse****.

(To give you ammo for return fire, I was in a Guard tank unit. That should be all you need.)

[Berlichtingen]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Marine's probably only go up to H or something like that since even A B C's are probably even optional.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A, B, C's? The only letters we needed to know were USMC

[Guest Sgt Morgue]

Mike Z

One more post , you are going to push me from jr.member to member (something i throught would never happen).

The MOS numbers i gave were from 30 years ago (Vietnam era) in a line platoon of divisional cavalry we had all four front line MOSes 11B infantry

11C mortarmen

11E tankers

11D scouts (i may have C & D reversed)

An ACAV (armored cavalry assult vehicle)was an m113 with three mounted machineguns with shields (one M2hb and two M60s), there were 6 of these scout vehicles plus three tanks an 113 infantry track and a mortar track in a divisional cavalry platoon. BTW the ACAV was the prerunner of the Bradley FV. Why the 2/7th is still a battalion instead of a squadron ,i don't know , maybe they are considered soldiers instead of troopers because they are all 11B.

As far as what i said about J troop , it may be bull , but it is the bull that the cavalry teaches. But i yield to you the week-end tanker cause i'm only a combat trooper.

[Guest Seimerst]

The companies in a regiment were identified alphabetically in sequence, i.e. 1st Bn (A, B, C) 2nd Bn (D, E, F) 3nd Bn (G H I)

Originally posted by Major Tom1) I don't really understand this question. US forces had Regiments of 3 Battalions, and there were 3-4 Companies per Battalion, so, each battalion would have A, B, C, and possibly D company. I wouldn't see them getting as far as J company.

3) I don't know?

[slazzari]

Sgt Mourge: You are right, they redesignated tankers and cavalry to the 19 series in the early 80's (late 70's, maybe?) My dad was a 11d (Cavalry Scout) in Vietnam, I was a 19d (Cavalry Scout) in the 90's. Interesting note: I didnt know my dad was Cav until I got out

Also, I was stationed with 3/7 Cav in Mannheim, Germany from 90-92 (I was in 8th ID(M) / 1st AD, they were right down the street from me), and they were all Squadron/Troop, not Battalion/Company designation back then. Who knows now, though

[Mike Zeares]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sgt Morgue:

Mike Z

One more post , you are going to push me from jr.member to member (something i throught would never happen).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, me too. This of course was my cunning plan from the beginning. We'll just post merrily away here in this little obscure thread until we achieve full member status. Infiltration tactics, you know?

[snip MOS numbers. Ah, I did not know they were all 11-series waaaay back then. What MOS were the rock throwers?]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

An ACAV (armored cavalry assult vehicle)was an m113 with three mounted machineguns with shields (one M2hb and two M60s), there were 6 of these scout vehicles plus three tanks an 113 infantry track and a mortar track in a divisional cavalry platoon. BTW the ACAV was the prerunner of the Bradley FV.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, neat little things. I read where they were invented by an ARVN armored cav officer. 3 mg's firing in 3 directions can be downright useful.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

Why the 2/7th is still a battalion instead of a squadron ,i don't know , maybe they are considered soldiers instead of troopers because they are all 11B.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, that would be my guess. Note that the divisional cav squadrons only got M1's after Desert Storm. I guess the Scouts didn't much like taking on T-72's with their Brads. They proportionally took more casualties than any other MOS, I think. That's from memory of our newspaper listing all of them, so I may be wrong. But they earned their pay, that's for sure.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>

As far as what i said about J troop , it may be bull , but it is the bull that the cavalry teaches. But i yield to you the week-end tanker cause i'm only a combat trooper. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Touche. You know I was just funnin' with you, right? Have you read "Tank Sergeant" by Ralph Zumbro? He was with 1st Btn/69th Armor in '67-'68. It's a really good read. You jungle tankers really kicked some butt over there.

To bring this sort of back on topic, I'd love to see a Combat Mission-type game set in Vietnam. Either that or "M48 Tank Platoon."

-- Mike Zeares

[Guest Sgt Morgue]

Mike Z , thanks for the info on Tank Sargent,

my three years in the military was all spent as a cavalry trooper except for about two months in 67-68 when i was a tank comander with the 1/69th armor , so i'll look up the book. BTW i was in one of the two cav squadrons sent to Vietnam in 1967 to prove that armor could be used in the jungles and terrain of VN , Armor Magizine later stated that these two units proved it so well , that all of the last operational US units in VN were armored cav.

And BTW Mike , now that we jousted here on paper , would you like to try a pbem match , send me a start if you wish.

[Guest Sgt Morgue]

Mike , have you tried Steel Panthers II ,you can simulate armor in VN very well except for our most important weapon which was the cannister round for our 90mm tank cannon, its not in SPII but it was very effective, 100% causalites for 500 meters in a V pattern from the end of the barrel.

[Mark IV]

11 Echo 20 checking in with news on 7th Cav: contemporary accounts from the massacre, including officers' testimony, refer frequently to cavalry "companies". The general and indispensable source "The Custer Myth" edited by W. A. Graham includes contemporary and official accounts from enlisteds, officers, and others in and about the LBH who refer to "companies" more frequently than "troops", though both are used.

Don't know the legal rights and wrongs of the matter, but these are the statements of the participants in the 1880's era. Details available on request. This is one of the great collections of late Custeriana, and contains much of the "primary" source material, including Indian eyewitnesses, on which later speculation is based.

[Mike Zeares]

Sgt. Morgue,

Got a slight problem with PBEM games -- the demo is on one computer, but my email and everything is on another, and I'm not sure how to handle that (we have a little network here. Unfortunately, only one machine has a 3D card). I suppose I can send the turn across the network to my email machine, but I need to test that. Plus I haven't really paid any attention to the PBEM aspects of the game yet. I need to read up on that before I try it.

I played SP1 for awhile before burning out on it. I only ever got the demo for SP2, which included a Vietnam scenario. That sucks that it didn't include the 90mm canister round. According to accounts I've read (like "Tank Sergeant") that was y'all's favorite round.

Zumbro talks a lot about how much in demand the tank units were among the tankless infantry units. Alpha Company was usually split up into their platoons, or even single tanks, running around from crisis to crisis like knights-errant. They developed quite a reputation. When they moved to their new firebase south of Pleiku City, they were greeted by a sign in Vietnamese and English that said, "Welcome Company A from Bong Son. Please leave our women alone and keep your damn tanks out of our rice paddies."

-- Mike Zeares, off to learn how to do PBEM games. Better late than never.