Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 I ask cause this morning, before work, I was playing a scenaro, in which there was a real "holy ****" moment. Where my M8 took out a PzIVG with its 37 mm gun at about 130 meters. Both were on flat ground at about the same elevation. (ps. it saved my bacon, too.) The detail on the hit read: Penetration, front lower hull. Now, I know we've had this discussion before and before and before, but I am posting again because I believe that many on the board have a limitless appetite for this kind of thing. When I checked the specs for the guns, I found that the M8 has a penetration at 100 meters of (I think) 38 mm of armor at 0 degrees of slope. But the front lower hull of the PzIVG is 70-something mm at 12 degrees. I may be off on the figures, but as I read it, the penetration of the m8 gun is much less than the armor How did the M8's 37 mm penetrate? Specifically, in this case. Terence ps. Im not one of these people who thinks the German armor should be invulnerable. (Apparently, there are these sorts of people. Who knew?) Until I started playing the game, I had no concept of German armor qualities at all, to say nothing of alleged invulerability, etc. I'm just bothered by an apparent inconsistency, that's all. Albest, Terence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chupacabra Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 War's nuts, **** happens, people get lucky. I've seen Tigers bounce shells off Shermans. Nearly anything's possible if you play for long enough. ------------------ Grand Poobah of the fresh fire of Heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Just to keep things interesting there is ALWAYS the remote chance (1 or 2 % depending n the AFV in question IIRC) of an "armour weak spot" pentration. NOW, I know that the info on detailed hits reported usually tells you that you got lucky and fluked a weak spot hit and penetrated so in this case I would ask you if you are sure you did not see a "Lower Hull Weak spot penetration" ? Barring that I have no clue, as to how the 37 mm round fired by M8 penetrated the Front lower hull of a Mrk IV? Anyone else? interesting situation, I have never seen one like it. -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Author Share Posted December 11, 2000 You make a good point, and certainly the random elements of warfare are excellently depicted in this game. I can find no fault with the AI tactics, either, I'd have come barreling down on the M8 too in exactly the same way, as it was making hash out of some german troops. And in fact, the panzer did take and miss the first shot. Its just that so much awe-inspiring effort went into creating an accurate mathematical model of armor penetration that something like this makes me wonder a little what is going on. The amount of plate the 37mm can chew through in that particular spot is really less than what the Pz IV has. Is this something that was factored in by the designers? Terence Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Must have been an HE shell and the M8 TC bounced it into the tank ------------------ Andreas <a href="http://www.geocities.com/greg_mudry/sturm.html">Der Kessel</a > Home of „Die Sturmgruppe“; Scenario Design Group for Combat Mission. [This message has been edited by Germanboy (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Author Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: Just to keep things interesting there is ALWAYS the remote chance (1 or 2 % depending n the AFV in question IIRC) of an "armour weak spot" pentration. NOW, I know that the info on detailed hits reported usually tells you that you got lucky and fluked a weak spot hit and penetrated so in this case I would ask you if you are sure you did not see a "Lower Hull Weak spot penetration" ? Anyone else? interesting situation, I have never seen one like it. -tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> yeah, im sure. I was so amazed, i reran it 5 or 6 times from different angles. Front lower hull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jshandorf Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Well, I have seen a STuG of mine boucnce a shell of a Sherman from 100 meters when my STuG had the elevation advantage. Couldn't explain it.... Just happen is Guess. Heck I am with Chup. I have seen a Panther bounce shells off a Sherman at 300 meters no less. Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 I think it si vastly more likely that weapon that should penetrate does not as opposed to a weapon that should not penetrate does. There are innumerable factors that can result in a decrease in the amount of armor a shell penetrates, while there are relatively few that increase the ability of a shell to penetrate. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Author Share Posted December 11, 2000 precisely. I was thinking -- what made it easier for that 37mm shell to punch through and knock out the Pz IVG? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armornut Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Could it be that the Tank you hit and killed was one that had shells impact it (maybe mortor shell, antipersonel mine)? If so, then that may have made it easier for the shell to go in. When a tank takes a hit, and keeps going, there may be a weak point that is created by the impact of a non-penitrating shell. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff Heidman Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 The only thing I could think of would be weak point in the armor, but you should see that with detailed armor hits. Jeff Heidman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Author Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by armornut: Could it be that the Tank you hit and killed was one that had shells impact it (maybe mortor shell, antipersonel mine)? If so, then that may have made it easier for the shell to go in. When a tank takes a hit, and keeps going, there may be a weak point that is created by the impact of a non-penitrating shell. Justin<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> its very unlikely. This panzer appeared on the extreme left flank of a mostly infantry clash, as a reinforcement unit. It took out one of my m8s before I even saw it. The other m8 backed up behind some trees and then peeked out the following turn to see the Panzer "appear" out of the darkness. (if I'd had any other remotely capable anti tank units, the M8 would have run like hell, but it was really the only unit available on that side of the board...) The Panser fired, missed and then the M8 returned fire (once), killing the Panzer. A high tension moment, and very enjoyable if you put the armor question aside for the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M. Bates Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>precisely. I was thinking -- what made it easier for that 37mm shell to punch through and knock out the Pz IVG?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Terence, you have discovered the Power Of Greyhound. The M8 is just as good a tank killer at close range as the Hellcat is. It won't use any of your Armor points and it is cheap!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 This one has me some what interested, and curious, if the frontal lower hull of the mrk IV is that thick that 37 mm round should not really have penetrated if it was not a "weak spot hit"? I think I'll play the AI as the Allies and use about 10 elite M8 Greyhounds against say about 7 Mrk IV's and see what happens. No infantry should be fun -tom w Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Author Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aka_tom_w: I think I'll play the AI as the Allies and use about 10 elite M8 Greyhounds against say about 7 Mrk IV's and see what happens. No infantry should be fun -tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> cool. let me know what happens! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 Check your M8 numbers again. That 37mm penetrates 65mm at 100meters at 0 degrees. All things considered you are looking at around 7-10mm shy of a full penetration. Thats a pretty slim margin. The other MarkIV models have more armor but is is of lesser quality (95%) so that can also be taken into effect, depending on the model of Mark IV you faced. At 138 meters from a front aspect angle the indicated % of a kill (a M8 to a Mark IV) is LOW but its certainly not impossible. Penetration amounts listed in the unit data table are somewhat flexible and on that day, in that battle, they flexed in your behalf. Madmatt Just to add to your luck, I ran some tests of my own. In 5 outa 5 (a small sample no doubt) the Hmm shells of the M8 shattered or ricocheted rounds off the Mark IV which then proceeding to toast the little bugger. Yeah, you got REAL lucky! [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 12-11-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Author Share Posted December 11, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madmatt: Check your M8 numbers again. That 37mm penetrates 65mm at 100meters at 0 degrees. All things considered you are looking at around 7-10mm shy of a full penetration. Thats a pretty slim margin. The other MarkIV models have more armor but is is of lesser quality (95%) so that can also be taken into effect, depending on the model of Mark IV you faced. At 138 meters from a front aspect angle the indicated % of a kill (a M8 to a Mark IV) is LOW but its certainly not impossible. Penetration amounts listed in the unit data table are somewhat flexible and on that day, in that battle, they flexed in your behalf. Madmatt<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Ahh. I played the scenario at home and called up the figures from memory when I got to work. You are, of course, absolutely right: 7-10mm is not a hell of a lot of margin when we talk about high explosives, and I suppose the 12 degree slope of the Pz IV G doesn't change the situation much. Anyhow, your answer is precisely what I wanted to hear, and makes the victory even sweeter -- now that I know that it falls within the universe of the theoretically possible. Thanks Matt!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aka_tom_w Posted December 11, 2000 Share Posted December 11, 2000 I just ran 11 elite M8's against 10 green mrk IV's no real hard stats here, but about 60% of the rounds that hit, the shell broke up or ricochetted. 40 % were penetrations at about 450 meters I got two front turret penetrations with the 37mm KOing the MrkIv's playing against the AI I lost 3 M8's and KO'd all 10 Mrk IV's There were plenty of EASY flank and rear penetrations. in one heated dual at 826 meters 3 M8's clustered together pounded a Mrk IV until finally one M8 was lost but one of them popped the Mrk IV with a Front Upper Hull penetration at Weak Point and KO'd it! (at one for one trade like that would be great odds if you could count on it all the time) I did, however not earn even one single front Lower hull penetration. There was one Gun hit knocking out the gun and one Track hit, both lead to flanking shots to K-Kill the Mrk IV. It was fun Light fast Elite M8's against green Mrk IV's (no infantry!) Like Shooting Fish a barrel ! -tom w [This message has been edited by aka_tom_w (edited 12-12-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 11, 2000 Author Share Posted December 11, 2000 The lesson is clear. If you want to take out tanks with the M8, hide under a rock till they go by, then shoot them in the ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 "and I suppose the 12 degree slope of the Pz IV G doesn't change the situation much." And remember, if you Mk IV was above you or coming up a slight rise, that 12 degrees could have realistically been 0 degrees when views from the M8. If you were actually just under 100m then the penetration shouldnt have been a problem. Try putting a Tiger in a position where its armour is 'sloped' by its position on the terrain and youll find out how hard those suckers can be to kill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 12, 2000 Author Share Posted December 12, 2000 umm. Stupid question here: If the target tank is coming UP a rise, or above the shooter isn't the slope INCREASED and therefore the armor is harder to penetrate? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest KwazyDog Posted December 12, 2000 Share Posted December 12, 2000 Yes it *would* for most surfaces, but not for the lower hull, as it usually sloped inwards Dan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terence Posted December 12, 2000 Author Share Posted December 12, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KwazyDog: Yes it *would* for most surfaces, but not for the lower hull, as it usually sloped inwards Dan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> oh. um. wait... ([sound of penny dropping]... light slowly dawns) OOOHhhhhh. OK cause it was backwar... duh. Now I get it. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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