M Hofbauer Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 WARNING! the following contains spoiler info re. the Elsdorf March 1945 stock scenario (this spoiler warning inserted due to request at a later time) x x x x x x x x x I bought CM and played it a bit by now (ca. half a dozen battles), and I really must congratulate you BTS and THANK YOU for one of the greatest games ever. It is GREAT GREAT GREAT! but I will leave the kudos and the evaluation to a later post of mine, right now I just wanted to tell you something that has happened to me today. we had discussed the problem of instantly appearing reinforcements in the past, and having played with CM's scenario editor I must say that really with good scenario design it is no problem to have the reinforcements introduced into the game in a realistic maner. However, playing one of the default scanrios that came with CM, bad scenario design led to enemy reinforcements appearing in a most absurd way. Battle: Elsdorf, March 1945. I was playing as the americans. Below you can roughly see how my forces (blue) were employed to engage the enemy (red) and eventually take the VLs, which consisted of the town and two woods. It all went rather well. I had one Greyhound flank the enemy to scout the enemy rear and positioned it in the rear of the enemy-held village to cut off any escape route for enemy crews or decimated infantry squads trying to escape to the enemy rear. hile positioning the Greyhound back there, it even managed to take out a flame Hetzer that was positioned in the village, from the rear. As I said before, it all went well, and the Greyhound was happily blocking and engaging routing enemy infantry. I knew from the scenario briefing that sooner or later a bunch of enemy armor was supposed to enter the game, but I figured that with the superb way that CM models the survivability that lies in speed for vehicles such as the M8 I should be able to retreat it into safety once the Tigers came. Now, the right yellow circle shows where my Greyhound was positioned when suddenly two Pz IV, a Tiger and a Kingtiger (yellow dots) plus one or two platoons of infantry suddenly beamed into place and my little Greyhound found itself suddenly surrounded by instant heavy armor, and he was right in the middle of it. See picture below: Now, some of you might say that this would provide me more with an opportunity than with a problem. Indeed I was wondering what I should do, if I should let the Greyhound take a side shot against a Pz IV otr maybe even chance a shot up the KT's rear. Also, I had positioned quite a force in the village already that was in a position to take advantage should the german armor turn to face the Greyhound. So I faintly hoped that the mysterious appearance and sure death of my little Greyhound was not completely in vain. I eventually decided to let the startled crew of the Greyhound make a run for it and engage the left Pz IV while doing that. But it didn't even last 3 seconds into the turn, because the accompanying german infantry made short work of the Greyhound with Panzerfausts. Nevertheless I was able to cope with the enemy with an M4A3, a M7 Priest and a M26 from the village who had originally been supporting infantry house-to-house fighting in the town when the mysterious appearance of the enemy meant that they could engage the enemy armor (they had no other choice but to engage the enemy since they could not retreat into cover anyhow). And in short time the Tiger and the two Pz IV were lost in a fire exchange that cost me the M26 and the M4A3. I was able to retreat the Priest and prepared to flank the remaining KT from two sides. Part of this required transitioning of a Chaffee and another M26 around the woods to the north of the village (upper edge of picture). When that force travelled along the road, suddenly a second batch of four Tigers (yellow dots) appeared right in the map where the left yellow circle is. The M26 managed to take out a Tiger before it was killed, and two turns later another Pershing together with a 155mm barrage killed off the remaining three. Still I was furious about whoever designed that scenario. Both times the enemy reinforcements did not appear at the dge of the map, much less out of sight/behind woods or elevation, no, they appeared right there hundreds of meters into the map, at places that would very likely be occupied by american forces at the time of arrival. So I would like to post this as a reminder for all the future users of the fabulous scenario editor (I did some scenarios already, too) to take extra care of realistic introduction of reinforcements into the battle. Reinforcements are a kick for any scenario, the salt and spice, and carefully planned successive reinforcements can have a very captivating and immersing effect as much as random, uncertain reinforcements create an effect of uncertaintly and variation. If however they appear instantaneously right amidst enemy troops they wreak havoc with the same immersion and realistic atmosphere of the game, as could be seen in this example, because aside from the reinforcemnts thing it proved to be a well-playing, entertaining scenario, ruined only by those reinforcements. yours sincerely, and thanks for a fantastic game, M.Hofbauer [This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 07-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Germanboy Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 I have not actually read your post, but I would like to ask you to: a) edit it so that it is clear that it contains spoiler info and there is a scenario forum where it would be better at home. Some folks here try to preserve the scenarios for double-blind play and posts like yours make that impossible. Thanks in advance. ------------------ Andreas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 SPOILER><><><><><><><><>< ,.,. , ., . ,. , . ,. The creator of that scenario just happens to be non other than the Grandpappy of Design himself, Wild Bill Wilder and you should consider it an HONOR to even play one of his masterpieces yet alone try and offer any suggestions to him. A designer can't specify the EXACT location that units will arrive on. He can specify the edge but the AI CAN and WILL move them around somewhat. Reinforcements do not drive on to the map. This is on the 'LIST' and has been for some time as a feature to implement. In v1.03 the AI has been tweaked somewhat so Armored units will favor roads as there reinforcement entry point if one is nearby. The location of those units on your flank is used as a device to instill confusion and surprise. The timing and makeup of those Germans was setup so that just as you are clearing the town or beginning to make headway forward, these tanks appear and switch the balance of the game back towards the defender. In order to accomplish this Bill has set the reinfocement point slightly in somewhat. This is offset to an extent by the fact the the Allied reinforcements enter the map very far forward. Bill was trying to use the entry point as a way to have a large force come in ready to roll and fight. In normal play of this scenario the allied recon elements are usually toast long before those tanks appear and in testing of this I never had any allied units on the flank when the tanks appeared. A designer can only plan for so much and in this case, you were at the point of entry and so the AI moved the units further in then normal. The design is sound, only your assessment of it is flawed... Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 07-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The design is sound, only your assessment of it is flawed...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> In all due respect Matt... I disagree with you and agree with M Hofbauer (Marcus I believe)... These sorts of problems should not arise, unless planned for (i.e. a garrison unit coming in in the middle of an occupied village... representing a unit jumping out of their bunks and into the fray).. if I am not mistaken, I believe this issue has been raised at least once on the Scenario forum and Wild Bill may have already provided a fix for it. Even the great one's can err... Bil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Formerly Babra Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 I for one don't care for vehicle reinforcements appearing from anywhere except a map edge. ------------------ It's a mother-beautiful bridge and it's gonna be THERE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted July 16, 2000 Author Share Posted July 16, 2000 The creator of that scenario just happens to be non other than the Grandpappy of Design himself, Wild Bill Wilder and you should consider it an HONOR to even play one of his masterpieces yet alone try and offer any suggestions to him. ------ I must admit I have heard that name before, yet that his merits carry no inherent infallibility; now, I am not saying his scenario is completely bad, no, I really liked it, like I said above, it played well, but if I had a choice between a poor scenario from a famous designer and a good scenario from an unknown or even unliked designer I'ld still prefer the latter (again, I am not saying his whole scenario is bad - but the reinforcement placement _was_). I see that he made several scenarios, one thing peculiar about his scenarios is that unlike other scenarios he doesn't say which side it is designed to be played from, but maybe that is because his are recreations of historical engagements. --------- A designer can't specify the EXACT location that units will arrive on. --------- oh yes he can. there is a little marker in the editor that you put on the tile where you want the reinforcements to arrive. --------- He can specify the edge but the AI CAN and WILL move them around somewhat. --------- he might move them around a few meters if there are a lot of troops in that reinforcement-batch, but I am not talking about a few meters here and there, the reinforcements in that batttle were designed to appear right in the map. There was no need for that. ---------- Reinforcements do not drive on to the map. This is on the 'LIST' and has been for some time as a feature to implement. In v1.03 the AI has been tweaked somewhat so Armored units will favor roads as there reinforcement entry point if one is nearby. ------------ as I said before, it is absolutely no problem for a scenario designer in CM to introduce reinforcements in a realistic, minimal-invasive way. On this map too there were roads leaving the map at remote, hilly wooden locations of the map. If you make a place with no LOS to the map's main areas themselves it is as if the reinforcements really do arrive as in real life. I know about the instant appearance problem that's why I try to keep away from map edges. Whether the reinforcements appear _on_ or _beside_ the entry roads then is a very minor issue IMO. --------------- The location of those units on your flank is used as a device to instill confusion and surprise. --------------- LOL.. oh yes that worked fine! there are few things more confusing and surprising than having four 60-ton monsters materialize in front of you / immediately around you - out of nothing! ---------------- The timing and makeup of those Germans was setup so that just as you are clearing the town or beginning to make headway forward, these tanks appear and switch the balance of the game back towards the defender. ----------------- oh, they failed to do that. I guess it surprised the germans as much as it surprised the americans to suddenly find themselves facing each other. Indeed, had my progress been slower, they would have appeared with some of my assault-supporting armor _behind_ them...but for their luck they had already moved away again... so this placement is just as unfortunate for the german Tigers as well... ------------------- In order to accomplish this Bill has set the reinfocement point slightly in somewhat. ----------------- I fail to see how the chosen position, quite a bit into the map and without cover, accomplishes anything but surprising everybody including the materializing Tigers. ---------------- This is offset to an extent by the fact the the Allied reinforcements enter the map very far forward. ---------------- yes, just the same, they are beamed into the battle just the same strange way, behind / before houses several hundred meters into the map. Now, again, tell me why this has to be done that way? if you let them enter the map in Elsdorf or at sdome other edge of the map one or two turns earlier you would have them at the same location at the same time, but in a more realistic manner. ----------------- Bill was trying to use the entry point as a way to have a large force come in ready to roll and fight. ----------------- or ready to be toasted and fried. Again, this placement of reinforcements is as risky to the reinforcements than it is to the allies. It's a chance thing for whom it is more unfortunate. Either way, it is highly anti-immersive. ------------------ In normal play of this scenario the allied recon elements are usually toast long before those tanks appear and in testing of this I never had any allied units on the flank when the tanks appeared. -------------- There is no "normal" way to win a battle or war, you do what works best, faites votre jeux, and besides that I was under the impression that scouts were used to scout ahead of the own forces and make quick dashes in the enemy rear, reconnoiter etc., not participate let alone carry the brunt of a full frontal assault where theys are lost fast. I love the way CM models scout vehicles' speed which is much of their ticket to surviving engagements (i.e., by retreating out of these engagements fast ) anyway, my post was not meant to spoil anything for anybody, or create a hostile atmosphere, sorry if any of it was perceived that way, I found it half funny how the Greyhound suddenly found himself surrounded by beamed-into-place german tanks out of nowhere, and half worth warning future scenario designers to not make such mistakes in choosing reinforcement points _in_ a map if the same can be achieved by moving them into the scenario from an edge, preferrably unseen at first. I was also not aware that there was a scenario forum installed by now, sorry, I hadn't been here for...hmm..couple of months? anyway, I wish you all a very nice CM-enriched weekend, yours sincerely, M.Hofbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Madmatt Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 A designer can't specify the EXACT location that units will arrive on. --------- oh yes he can. there is a little marker in the editor that you put on the tile where you want the reinforcements to arrive. ************************************** I am well aware of what is or isn't possible in the editor my friend. What I was saying is that even when you drop that marker down the AI will still move the units around a bit especially if there are several units that will take up a great amount of space. Entry of reinforcements IS being tweaked in the next patch but there is still room for improvement. I loaded up Elsdorf again in the editor and I see where the issue is. In the version that I orginally looked at (I have 3 of them!) the re-inforcement marker IS along the map edge (or much closer than it is now) but the version on the CD it is not. Now I tested this one several months ago so I do not remember if I changed it or it was changed by Bill after I sent in my testing report. As it stands I will concede to your suggestion. the Marker SHOULD be along the edge. I guess I just took exception to HOW you stated what you did as it appeared that you didnt even go to the effort to look up Bill's name in the briefing... No damage done and I am sure Bill will address this as he is VERY receptive to feedback on his work. And Bil, I guess I will need to publically humilate you in a PBEM game now! Madmatt ------------------ If it's in Combat Mission, it's on Combat Mission HQ! CMHQ-Annex, The Alternative side of Combat Mission Combat Mission HQ CMHQ-Annex Proud members of the Combat Mission WebRing [This message has been edited by Madmatt (edited 07-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 Matt, I agree with Bil. Markus does have a point.. That is why I continually advocate making the map a few hundred metres bigger than necessary so that reinforcements can appear in a location which has absolutely NO potential for being occupied at the time of their arrival. Simply make the map a bit larger and have them appear in a dip in the ground and then they won't suddenyl "pop up" in the middle of a firefight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfe Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>the Marker SHOULD be along the edge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> If this change is made, be sure to nuke the woods and scattered trees along the back edge at the entry point. CM will occasionally place reinforcements *between* wooded tiles in the small areas that are "open ground", making them very difficult to maneuver. Some units may even be completely trapped in certain circumstances. And scattered trees with snow present an immobilization hazard. *Great* scenario, by the way. Mucho fun. If you haven't been spoiled, then go play it NOW! And even if you have, play it anyway! - Chris [This message has been edited by Wolfe (edited 07-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest herbjorn Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 The creator of that scenario just happens to be non other than the Grandpappy of Design himself, Wild Bill Wilder and you should consider it an HONOR to even play one of his masterpieces yet alone try and offer any suggestions to him. -------------------------------------------- Hm, what was that line from civilization "when mere mortals tremble"? IMO that was rather harsh. Especially considering that YOU had mixed up the different versions of the scenario. Constructive critizism should always be welcomed, be it towards a god or man alike [This message has been edited by herbjorn (edited 07-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bil Hardenberger Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>And Bil, I guess I will need to publically humilate you in a PBEM game now!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Why? Because I disagreed with you? I am afraid the only person who would be publicly humiliated, would be you... don't make me wield Fionnsbane on your ass! If you insist however, set it up.. I prefer a DYO Meeting Engagement, 1000-2000 points, I will be the Germans. E-mail me you scum! Bil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgdpzr Posted July 16, 2000 Share Posted July 16, 2000 I just played this scenario, and I agree that the placement of reinforcements is a little dicey. I like Fionn's idea of expanding the map. It helps both sides to have them appear out of harm's way so to speak. But, I admit, I really benefitted from the placement of the platoon of Tigers. They beamed in adjacent to a platoon of my infantry. I loved seeing an infantry squad take one out with grenades and my little lowly 'zook KO two tigers in the span of two turns. ------------------ "Sometimes you eat the bar and sometimes the bar eats you. Take it easy, Dude." -- The Stranger The Dude abides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elric Posted July 17, 2000 Share Posted July 17, 2000 Damn Fine Game Ciao! [This message has been edited by elric (edited 07-16-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricky Posted July 17, 2000 Share Posted July 17, 2000 M Hofbauer's observations are indeed correct. I can personally vouch for what he is saying, as there is nothing more frustrating for reinforcements to "warp" into the middle of a scenario. It's a good "heads up" for scenario designers to pay special attention to the reinforcement locations. Playtesting before releasing these maps to the public should be done in all cases so as these little nuances can be eliminated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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