An interesting SS quote

[tss]

I recently came upon the following quote on Waffen-SS. The author was Finnish captain Y.P.I. Kaila who served in the SS-Division Wiking for ten months, starting from the beginning of Barbarossa. By that time he was already veteran of two wars, Spain and Winter War. The extract was written in 1942 and it's a part of his report on his experience:

"I noticed much bravery but almost no skill. The officer corps of Waffen-SS didn't train themselves with tactical questions! The combat and leading one's troops in battle were seen to be so simple that no special expertise would be necessary and Germanic bravery would be enough.

As I mentioned before, the war begun so soon that I didn't have opportunities to examine the combat training in the unit. Therefore my opinion on training in SS forces is based on the results, actions on the front, both on battlefield and outside of it. I got very poor picture on this; poor terrain use, short-sighted bravery, actual mania on gathering in large groups, non-existent fire control, companies were led by being a champion warrior, etc. On marches one of the basic requirements of motorized troops, driving discipline, was poor and the troop accommodation was impractical and unhygienic. I notices significant signs of un-professionalism everywhere and true expertise was either not known or arrogantly belittled.

The lack of training was compensated, though with a bloody price, by common bravery and I hold the SS-troops in high regard in this respect. The discipline was faultless. I didn't observe a single occurrence where a man would have disobeyed any order from his squad leader, not even a displeasing or a highly dangerous one. A leader, especially an officer, could maintain his authority even better than what his rank in SS-Kameradscath would have required."

Note that this extract tells of the state of Waffen-SS in 1941. The quality of SS troops rose with the war (at least, until '44) as the highly paid experiences were not forgotten.

- Tommi

[Screamin Demon]

Ok, interesting quote and all, but I have a question for anyone who is willing to answer. What is this whole war in Spain stuff about? When did it happen? Who was involved and why?

**It was not my intention to change the topic of discussion, keep discussing this stuff, but if you can write a little note at the bottom of you message explaining this to me.**

Thanks in advance, your friend,

Mr. Demon.

[This message has been edited by Screamin Demon (edited 06-06-2000). BECAUSE THEY SHOULD HAVE A DAMN GRAMMER AND SPELL CHECKER.]

[This message has been edited by Screamin Demon (edited 06-06-2000).]

[G4A]

Spanish civil war

(1936-39), military revolt against the Republican government of Spain, supported by conservative elements within the country. When an initial military coup failed to win control of the entire country, a bloody civil war ensued, fought with great ferocity on both sides. The Nationalists, as the rebels were called, received aid from Fascist Italy and Nazi Germany. The Republicans received aid from the Soviet Union, as well as from International Brigades, a great number of volunteers who came from other European countries and the United States.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Screamin Demon:

Ok, interesting quote and all, but I have a question for anyone who is willing to answer. What is this whole war in Spain stuff about? When did it happen? Who was involved and why?

**It was not my intention to change the topic of discussion, keep discussing this stuff, but if you can write a little not at the bottom of you message explaining this to me.**

Thanks in advance, your friend,

Mr. Demon.

[This message has been edited by Screamin Demon (edited 06-06-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Spanish civil war, socialist government vs. Franco's fascists. Time was 1933-1937/8, IIRC. Franco was a general in the Spanish army. There were Germans and Italians on Franco's side (German Legion Condor) and international brigades on the legitimate government's side. In these brigades, among others, George Orwell and Ernest Hemingway fought. They lost, and Franco ruled Spain until his death in 1973(?). A lot of the German tactics of the Blitzkrieg were practiced there, and the Legion Condor is generally credited with the first large-scale air attack on an undefended town, Guernica in the Basque country.

As a token thank you for the Legion Condor, the Spanish sent a unit to fight in Russia, called 'The Blue Legin', IIRC. There is a movie or book about them somewhere.

Good reads: Laurie Lee: 'A moment of war', a short autobio about an English guy volunteering for the international brigades.

George Orwell: 'Hommage to Catalonia'

Hemingway 'For whom the bell tolls', IIRC.

There is also a good BBC drama (methinks) about a veteran of the international brigades dying in the 1980s or 90s and his daughter sort of discovering his story. One of my favourite poem lines I have from that drama, I think it is engraved on the guy's tombstone:

Join in the battle

for no man shall fail

for he who so dieth

yet his deed shall prevail.

William Morris it is attributed to.

This is all just off the top of my head, there are probably lots of mistakes in here.

---

Andreas, being a romantic at heart

[Juju]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

Note that this extract tells of the state of Waffen-SS in 1941. The quality of SS troops rose with the war (at least, until '44) as the highly paid experiences were not forgotten.

- Tommi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not entirely true IMHO.

Many later SS units were made up from foreign troops (some really weird units here, like the Indische Freiwilligen-Legion der SS, or, even stranger, the principly muslim Osttuerkische Waffenverband der SS). While some of them performed excellent in combat, some others are not so noteworthy, and are specifically reputed to be of little military value (like the 2 mentioned above)

Anyway, TSS, Indeed the true Germanic unit's quality did rise until about '44. But the foreign ones...

------------------

Combat Axiom 46. Do unto others, before they do unto you.

[Blackwatch]

Interesting quote. I'm currently reading 'Steel Inferno' which is about SS forces in Normandy and it was also mentioned in that book that SS troop training was unconventional in that sporting events were emphasized and drills and marches were not even part of their training program.

Looks like this quote is consistent with what I've been reading in the book.

[Lt. Kije]

Last night I was talking on the phone with my Dad, a Normandy veteran, a lieutenant, forward observer. He was telling me about a time where he and the company he was attached to were on the other side of a hedgerow from a bunch of SS troops including at least one tank (unidentified). My Dad's impression was that these guys were veterans of the Eastern front and pretty savvy about the current situation. They were only in close proximity for one night, but my Dad said these guys had absolutely no interest in engaging in any unnecessary combat. His observation of them led him to believe that the average SS veteran suspected that the war was lost and wasn't very enthusiastic about risking his life in a pointless folly.

Which is not to say there weren't fanatic SS troops and officers. My Dad told me another story about a company of elite paratroops who were ordered by such a fanatic to attack across open ground toward prepared positions with (known to the Germans) heavy US artillery support. Since the front around there was pretty quiet, my Dad's counterpart (relieved my Dad so he could get some sleep) had the luxury of calling in Division level fire support on the open field those guys had to cross. Not only 105's (many) but some 155's as well. Utter devastation of an elite unit due to the fanaticism of their leadership.

[RMC]

Interesting quote. It doesn't exactly jive with some of the other statements I've read on them. This Finn was with them and his perceptions must have some truth in them. I would have thought his comments were more appropriate to Totenkopf than Wiking. There is an anecdote about training in the SS-VT prior to the war where the SS started an attack exercise as a show for Hitler and the men moved with stealth and skill and not in a more traditional infantry style. Steiner maintains that the Waffen SS was the descendant of the WWI Stosstrupps that had such brilliant successes late in the war. Formed around the idea of being an elite and not a mass conscription army they were supposed to place emphasis on realistic training and not parade ground drill. Kaila's comments indicate otherwise. I have a book on the history of the Finn SS battalion and I'll check to see if this view is more prevalent.

About the foreign formations. I'd say Wiking was a capable division as were the two Latvian and one Estonian divisions. The indian, albanian, bosnia and croatian formations among others all left a lot to be desired.

Since we're talking quotes....

SS anecdote.

Gruppenfuehrer (Lt Gen) Hausser comes to inspect training. He finds some soldiers in position behind some bushes. He asks one "what is your job, soldier?" The soldier replies "Schuetze #2, Gruppenfuehrer!" Hausser asks the next one the same question. "Schuetze #1, Gruppenfuehrer!" Hausser move a little further and asks another soldier what his job is. The Soldier replies, "Gruppenfuehrer, Gruppenfuehrer!" And Hausser chuckles and says "I guess that makes us colleagues."

If you don't get it, don't worry, it was weak....

[Mike Oberly]

That quote sounds just like descriptions of combat in '41/'42 in 'Soldiers of Destruction' about the Totenkopf division,Tommi.I think the officers of the SS divisions,at that time especially,were far inferior to those in the Wermacht.

Mike

[Bobbaro]

I would expect that the quality of training in the SS units would be influenced first by the inherent concepts inspiring their creation. Then I would suspect that a lot of individual variation of training emphasis would occur depending on leadership and circumstances. So one could not make a blanket and expect it cover all.

Even in conventional military units there were variations in training due to some of the same causes. I recall reading of some Divisons in the US army recieving much better training than others because they lucked out and drew a commander, who had a much better concept of real combat vs the book and who had the energy and leadership to see to that quality training quality was conducted. I seem to remember of a couple of divisions whose commander emphasised night attack training which saved many live in later operations through surprise and and other advantages that soldiers so prepaired could achieve. Dupuy in his book setting forth a mathmatical approach to measuring military effectiveness, Understanding War, points out that the 89 division achieved outstanding results and attributed it to leadership particularly in traning.

On the other hand some were short changed as their trained personnel were taken off to form other units and replaced with recruits. Others were rushed to combat too hurridly for proper training to take place.

The characterization quoted by tss rings very true to me in this context. It need not necessarily be expected to cover the whole SS experence.

[Keith]

I strongly recommend people reading Michael Reynold's series of books (Men of Steel, Devil's Adjunct, Steel Inferno) on the 1st SS Corps. His books are very ballanced and provide sufficient detail for CM scenarios. While Reynolds admires the fighting qualties and thoroughly researches his books, he doesn't cut the Waffen SS any breaks with regard to war crimes. I find many of the SS books are nothing but propaganda of Nazis trumpeting their victories and glossing over their defeats.

With regard to the fighting qualties of the SS divisions that fought in Normandy, here is my assement.

1)Das Reich (2nd SS). This unit suffered 60-70% casualties on the Eastern Front before being rebuilt in Normandy roughly two months before the invasion. Given the amount of replacements absorbed (many of which were not volunteers and came from the Luftwaffe) with little opportunity for training, I would probably model this unit as a mixture "Veteran" and "Regular" troops with high quality platoon leaders. This is only because of the excellent core of NCOs and officers.

2)17th SS . This unit fought against the Americans around St. Lo. and Carenten. Von der Heydte, the veteran commander of the 6th Parachute Regiment, rated the quality of the officers as being very poor. Normandy was this units first action and their execution of the counter attack against Carenten was a disaster. Also poorly equipped, with many troops using bycicles. In terms of CM, probably "Green".

3)12th SS "HJ". High quality unit comprised of 18 year olds with no battle experience pior to Normandy. Cadre of experienced NCOs and officers from 1st SS. Therefore probably rate as "Regular" with fanaticism and excellent platoon leaders.

4)1st SS. Excellent unit also being rebuilt prior to Normandy. I would rate this unit the same as 2nd SS.

Incidentally, many of the "elite" German para units performed quite poorly in their initial battles because they were new units comprised of mostly Luftwaffe ground personnel with incompetent officers.

[tss]

I would have thought his comments were more appropriate to Totenkopf than Wiking.

You should remember the time aspect. Kaila served in it when it was in its first battles. The Wiking division got better, and by end of 1942 it was a good division. At that time, Kaila had been back in Finland for half a year.

Other Finns confirmed at least some of Kaila's points. Many soldiers commented that fire discipline was very poor. During one night when the division was moving through a forest a couple of partisans fired few shots with rifles at the column of (I think) Nordland regiment. The column stopped, men poured out and started shooting at all directions. The blind firing lasted for half an hour.

Also, the troops were only trained for attacks and defensive tactics were not taught. On one occasion, Soviets mounted a small-scale counter attack. The Germans retreated hastily leaving their trucks behind. The Soviets would have burned the whole column if some ten or so Finns hadn't stayed behind to defend the vehicles. However, one has to remember that the Finns in question were all veterans of Winter War and had a lot of experience in stopping Red Army attacks while the Germans were still green.

There's also some other evidence that casts doubt on early SS quality. I've often mentioned the SS division Nord on this subject. The division's first attack was a mindless human-wave assault against heavily fortified positions and led to very heavy casualties. A couple of months later when Soviets started their counter attack at Kiestinki a detachment of Finns, SS, and ordinary German troops defended flanks of the main troops.

The SS men formed almost 50% of the total size of the detachment and their sector was only 33% of the front but still the Soviet patrols could get through their lines almost at will while Finns and Wermacht troops stopped almost all Soviet probes.

- Tommi

[Geier]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

I recently came upon the following quote on Waffen-SS. The author was Finnish captain Y.P.I. Kaila... - Tommi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this excerpt from a book he wrote? Do you know if it has been translated into Swedish? I am uncertain as to how much literature gets published in Swedish in Finland, any tips? Swedish bookstores carry very little good military literature so I've been buying books in english via the net. Any pointers?

And oh yeah, I think I got the Lars Radeström joke. He's a JAS Gripen-pilot isn't he? You cruel person;

(Killed that smilie before he got through)

Lots of smilies were harmed in the writing of this message.

------------------

Geier, formerly Kettle Black.

"The succesful execution of a well devised plan often looks like luck to saps."

Dashiell Hammett

[tss]

Is this excerpt from a book he wrote? Do you know if it has been translated into Swedish? I am uncertain as to how much literature gets published in Swedish in Finland, any tips?

No, he wrote a report for the Finnish high command. Mauno Jokipii found the report when he researched the subject for his book.

My Swedish is terribly rusty so I don't actively follow what is published in it. However, some months again I stumbled on General Siilasvuo's biography that was in Swedish. I can't remember its name, though.

And oh yeah, I think I got the Lars Radeström joke. He's a JAS Gripen-pilot isn't he?

Yup, or more precisely he quit flying with it after the second crash. I know that I shouldn't be joking on serious matters but there is something inherently amusing when same pilot crashes two planes two separate aerial shows. And yes, I know that the problem was in controlling software and not in pilot.

- Tommi

[Guest Big Time Software]

I can back this up completely. The SS-VT was criticized by many Heer commanders during Poland, 1940 West, and the Balkans. It boiled down to poor leadership made up for in bravery and blood. In fact, it is accepted as fact that the reason the Totenkopf executed a group of British prisoners at La Palis (probably spelled wrong ) was because they had suffered horrible casualties for a trivial gain.

Never the less, the senior level Heer commanders who had SS-VT (later Waffen SS) troops under their command knew that if they wanted a job done they could count on these guys. Although they aknowledged the skill shortcoming, they sometimes bubbled over at the bravery aspect. Bravery worked OK in the short term, but it had a long term negative effect. One exception was the poorly trained and led SS Nord unit (it changed title and size a few times) fighting in Finland. They actually ran away from battle in panic early on. Still, that formation aquitted itself well over time. Another original SS-VT unit like this was the 4th SS Polizei division. Terrible for a long time, then a decent fighting force.

As the war went on the skill of the Waffen SS junior officers improved. Towards the end of the war the skill started to slide off again as it did for the Wehrmacht as a whole. The 12th SS HJ PzDiv in France was more like the SS units of old. Undertrained and inexperienced, but determined and highly motivated.

Some of the non-Germanic units were top notch, others were nothing short of horrible.

This is a facinating topic that is very deep and involved.

Steve

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-06-2000).]

[Speedy]

Germanboy I believe the BBC drama you mentioned is called 'Land and Freedom'. This is a good movie and I recommend it, I especially liked the scene with the dawn attack on the fascist held village.

[Stoffel]

Steve this shooting occured at Le Paradis

The commander of this group was Fritz Knochlein.His company was shelled for an hour before he met the British.The British troops killed several of his men and agreed with surrendering when they ran out of ammo.

When they walked towards the Germans they were shot down.The wounded were killed with bajonets.

Two soldiers survived the massacre they were the key witnesses in the trial.

Knochlein was captured after the war and received the deathpenalty.

I have Soldiers of Destruction and have read it thoroughly.

My opinion is that the SSTotenkopf was in the beginning a group of criminals and other lowlives that used to guard concentrationcamps.

Especially in Poland they commited hugh crimes against humanity.

The army commander in Poland tried to stop this(Blaskowitz) but was ignored.Finally the Wehrmacht stopped protesting.

Troughout the years that followed the division received better training,men and equipment.Most of the Nco's received specialist traing from the regular army.

in 1941 it was one of the best divisions in the SS together wit Leibstandarte and Das Reich.

Most armycommanders at that time were glad if they had one of these divisions in reserve as they were mostly used as shockdivisions or to fill up holes in the German defence(the latter occurred freqently after 1943)

There were some smaller units formed by volunteers from The Netherlands and Belgium

many of these volunteers were professional soldiers recruted in these countries.

I don't agree with the statement that most officers were bad or even worse compared to regular army standards

One thing that you can find in this book is that many of the commanders from SStv raised to Regimental and even divisioncommanders I think an officer don't becomes awarded with such high posts if he is not good enough.

Another problem regards to officers was the high loss rate the officers were not allowed to wear helmets only the standard officercap.So snipers could take them out very easy.I do agree with the earlier statement about discipline

In Totenkopf soldiers were practically brainwashed with the idea of an enemy being a sort of lowlive(Untermensch)jewish/communist(A danger to the Third Reich) that by all means had to be eliminated.

Like I mentioned before the 3rd SS held out for 6 months during the russian offensive in 1942.The only unit that formed a big sallient in the russian frontline.The division was almost destroyed only 3000 men survived sick hungry but determined to hold out and kill as many russians as they can.When a relieve operation was started they managed to break out of encirclement on their own

The survivers became the new core of officers and nco's of the newly formed Totenkopf.

As someone stated earlier about the 12 div.Veterans combined with new recruits(like the others totally brainwashed) and equipment and the time to build up a new division.

After 6 months of training you can say in 1943 they were the best division in the german army.In Kursk together with the 1st and second division they were the only units able to penetrate the russian lines.

At that moment they were at the highest peak of their power and not a reminder of the units from the start of the war.

[Guest Germanboy]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Speedy:

Germanboy I believe the BBC drama you mentioned is called 'Land and Freedom'. This is a good movie and I recommend it, I especially liked the scene with the dawn attack on the fascist held village.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you speedy, the very one. What a wonderful movie it was. Did they base that on Laurie Lee's 'A moment of war'? It looked a bit like it. It brought across the whole sadness and forlorn hopes of the time so well - sniffle, excuse me...

------------------

Andreas

The powers of accurate perception are often called cynicism by those who do not possess them. (forgot who said it)

[Gary T]

Just to throw my 2 pence in.

I have believed for sometime years now that Waffen SS performance, certainly in comparison to regular Wehrmacht divisions, has often been massively overstated especially by English language publications. Alot of these publications are just re-hashes of Waffen SS unit histories written by the veterans themselves with absolutely no attempt to question the actions at all (this in some regards holds true for the German view of the Eastern Front as a whole).

The performance of Heer divisions, especially Panzer divisions, was at least equal, and in some cases better than the W-SS but this is completely overlooked. How many Heer Panzer division histories are there in English?

I'm also not sure about the claims that W-SS performance increased until 1944. I would argue for a decrease from March 1943 onwards (after the Kharkov counteroffensive). It was at this point that Luftwaffe ground personnel began to be transferred en-masse to the so-called 'elite' Waffen SS divisions. Senior army officers were highly critical of W-SS leadership (particularly the junior officers) during the Kursk battle and during the Mius operation later on in July 1943. The criticism exactly mirrors that posted by Tommi. Indeed in the latter operation it was the exhausted Heer 23. Panzerdivision that was the mainstay of the counter attack and not 'Das Reich' or 'Totenkopf' despite those divisions being given LAH's tanks and equipment before it left for Italy (not to mention the 2 extra PzG battalions and Stug Abteilung per division).

This is not to say that the W-SS did not produce some fine soldiers - it did. No doubt someone will point out the excellent performance of the W-SS in Normandy especially, as rightly pointed out, some of them had had a massive influx of new recruits.

However, look at 352. ID on D-Day. It too had had a massive influx of recruits built up around a hardcore of veterans. I would argue that its performance, especially given the circumstances and its TOE, was just as noteworthy. Finally one must remember that the W-SS performance was an excellent DEFENSIVE one - they certainly did not achieve that much in the attack. It is in the attack that a formations real quality comes out. A formation with high morale but poor training or leadership can perform superbly well on the defensive - an excellent case in point is the Red Army in 1941-43. They were atrocious in the attack but damned good in defence.

Why are the W-SS held in such high esteem these days? A number of reasons IMHO. One the aforementioned almost 'hero worship' English language books. Two their image (loads of tanks, camo uniforms, extreme bravery (some would say fanatical), being present at major operations. I also think that they have been played up to some extent so as to divert attention from the Aliies own serious military shortcomings in NW Europe.

Sorry to ramble,

Gary.

[Geier]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tss:

Mauno Jokipii found the report when he researched the subject for his book.

My Swedish is terribly rusty so I don't actively follow what is published in it. However, some months again I stumbled on General Siilasvuo's biography that was in Swedish. I can't remember its name, though.

- Tommi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK just did a search at bokus.se, Jokipii turned up several books, all in Finnish and Siilasvou turned up zilch. Oh well, off to the used bookstores again. As for the JAS-joke, no skin off my back, I can take it, I'm a Viggen fan anyway and Swedens Defense policy is well, you know, not what it has been.

Btw, can you perhaps confirm this, if true it's one of the coolest quotes from an official person ever. It was told to me by a "finlandssvensk":

When asked why Finland had chosen to buy the F-16 over JAS by a Swedish reporter the official smiled and said: "JAS is a nice plane, but if we want to take back Far Karelia we need the F-16..." Even if false its a great qoute.

And is there any way to get hold of the original b/w version of Okänd Soldat (Tuntematon Sotilas?) that you know of?

Sorry for all the questions, thanks for your patience.

------------------

Geier, formerly Kettle Black.

"The succesful execution of a well devised plan often looks like luck to saps."

Dashiell Hammett

[Guest Big Time Software]

Gary, this is very true. It is also not stated in the Waffen SS "über alles" books that they received the pick of the recruits and equipment. The Panzer divisons of the Waffen SS were more comperable to the Gross Deutschland in terms of size, favoritism, and TO&E (i.e. both had organic Tiger units).

In general authors and the public like to focus on the "elite" units of any army. How many books, flims, and TV documentaries are there on the 101st and 82nd Airborne Divisions or the US Marines? The standard line infantry division is a mere footnote. This goes for higher formations as well. How many books were written about Patton's Third Army? I am less familiar with Commonwealth publications, but I would expect that a good deal more has been written about the SAS and 1st Airborne than anything else.

Plus, the Waffen SS had some pretty kick ass uniforms, both then and now. In fact, the coolness of their uniforms was a huge selling point when they recruited from Western Europe. I did a paper on a related topic and found an internal SS report that placed this one at the top of the list of ways to get young men to join up.

Steve

P.S. "Soliders of Destruction" is a *must* read for anybody even remotely interested in an indepth look at one of the most significant elements of the Waffen SS

[This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 06-07-2000).]

[tss]

Siilasvou turned up zilch.

Last time when I visited the local bookstore it was on the shelves. I can go and check the name and isbn of the book today.

And is there any way to get hold of the original b/w version of Okänd Soldat (Tuntematon Sotilas?) that you know of?

Book or movie? Well, movie apparently. Actually, it's nowadays more difficult to get hold of the new version of the film. The original version is sold in nearly all shops that have videos, but I haven't noticed the new version anywhere in last five years. I don't know if it is available on DVD.

The book has also been translated to English ("The Unknown Soldier") but I've heard that the translation is TERRIBLE. The translator took his name out of the book after the American publisher had "improved" it somewhat. The legend says that the changes were made by two drunken Hollywood screenwriters. I think that says all about its quality...

As for the JAS-joke, no skin off my back, I can take it, I'm a Viggen fan anyway and Swedens Defense policy is well, you know, not what it has been.

Well, then just one last more (this is really the last, I promise): http://www.e.kth.se/esekt/org/bsong/songs/ovrigt/vem_kan_flyga.html .

- Tommi

[RMC]

I've got The Unknown Soldier. I didn't think it was bad. Obviously I can't compare since I never read the original (not that I could - en puhu suomea). I'd be interested to hear what the exact criticisms are.

[Geier]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RMC:

I've got The Unknown Soldier. I didn't think it was bad. Obviously I can't compare since I never read the original (not that I could - en puhu suomea). I'd be interested to hear what the exact criticisms are. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can imagine what the criticisms are since the translator has a written two pages on the dialects he has used for the Swedish version. Some characters speak dialects that are very hard to understand for the other characters, in the Swedish translation, the translator uses some sort of quasi-Swedish dialects that apear close to unintelligable for a modern reader. Since Väinö Linna both writes (very colourfully) as the characters speak and also uses the failures of communication in the plot. I can't imagine how to portray this in a natural way in English. The character Rokka for instance, his lines I sometimes need to read three or four times just to get a general idea of what he is saying. I imagine that the original Finnish is similar in complexity. Another example: When someone is an referred to as an idiot, he "has piss in his head" in the Swedish translation. Doesn't really work in english. Still, probably the best novel to come out of WW2 for my money.

Geier

[Stoffel]

for anyone interested ,

soldiers of destruction is written by Charles W. Sydnor.and published by Princeton University Press,New Yersey for the US and Oxford for the UK