David Aitken Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 An interesting article in today's Scotland On Sunday newspaper: You can read it here. (184K JPEG) David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Devils Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Great article. Thanks for posting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pillar Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Babra! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Interesting. What PzDiv. would that have been? 23,000 would be enough in August 1944 to make four PzDiv's from. ------------------ "All i hear is the Iron Cross sucks etc. " (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 17, 2000 Author Share Posted September 17, 2000 M Hofbauer wrote: > What PzDiv. would that have been? It doesn't say, but apparently a certain Major-General Eltow was in command, so maybe you can work it out. David P.S. According to my atlas, the Allier river is about 260km/175mi south of Paris, and runs north-south between Nevers and Vichy. ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." [This message has been edited by David Aitken (edited 09-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pvt. Ryan Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Wasn't that kind of gamey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted September 17, 2000 Share Posted September 17, 2000 Moreover it looks like the poor sod has surrendered his kilt now. Amazing what you can do with a reputation of sheep shagger... Don't shoot D, I know it's supposed to be the Welsh but I don't have one handy. What's bugging me is that they knighted him for his industrial achievements and not for this Tour de force. ------------------ Either he's dead or my watch has stopped Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 17, 2000 Author Share Posted September 17, 2000 Pvt. Ryan wrote: > Wasn't that kind of gamey? LOL Pity there's no option in CM to try and convince your opponent he's outnumbered. "Excuse me Fritz, but if you don't pull out now, this place will be swarming with Comets within the hour!" "Aha Tommy, but ve haf two Battalions in reserve, all battle-hardened veterans! Just thank us ve haven't crushed you already!" David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 I reek some serious BS here. Journalists + old vets are a deadly combination. They both compete for falsifying and glamorizing any actual event. I will look into this. There weren't too many PzDiv around in the respective timeframe and location, so adding the other factors of some GM Eltow etc. I will uncover this charade It will not be a pretty sight! ------------------ "Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 18, 2000 Author Share Posted September 18, 2000 I'll maybe catch the TV programme in question and see what it says. David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Heinz 25th PzReg Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 Hi What kind of Divisional Commander would give up his entire 23000 man Panzer Division to a crazy Scotsman dressed in kilt? Hehe, is this a good story or what? Heinz ------------------ "To subdue your enemy without fighting is the supreme excellence." - Sun Tzu, The Art of War Visit my AAR site: home.online.no/~andhess/cm/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted September 18, 2000 Share Posted September 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heinz 25th PzReg: What kind of Divisional Commander would give up his entire 23000 man Panzer Division to a crazy Scotsman dressed in kilt? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You'll do anything to get rid of a guy wearing a kilt who happened to be visiting you under your tent. ------------------ Either he's dead or my watch is fast Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 18, 2000 Author Share Posted September 18, 2000 LOL Paw... Depends what the fellow was expecting. For example, he might just have been counting the days until he was forced to surrender, so when this guy marched in so confidently, it would have fitted in with his anticipation of events. Of course, we've yet to confirm the accuracy of the story... =) David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crepitis Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Originally posted by PawBroon: You'll do anything to get rid of a guy wearing a kilt who happened to be visiting you under your tent. Funny how you call yourself PAWBROON but you act rather more like THE BAIRN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 19, 2000 Author Share Posted September 19, 2000 He's French, don't expect too much of him. =) ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 it doesn't look good for british journalism it seems. this is what I found so far: There was NO Major-General Eltow, never ever anywhere within WW2 germany, and the "unit" in question surely wasn't one of -to quote the yellowpress article- "Hitler's crack Panzer Divisions". Like I had hinted earlier, this was the easiest to disprove because only a handful were in france at the time, and none of those ever got any close to that story. However, there was an incident that might very well have been the litle grain of truth behind this grossly inflated war story. The person in question was a General Major ELSTER, and his "unit" were 28,000 staff, rear area support personnel and navy crews which were retreating through france in August 1944 through the area described. ELSTER was thinking about surrender and indeed did so after some negotiation with free french units they met along the way. Full story of what really happened, if that is indeed the story behind the newspaper article, tomorrow, if anyone's still interested. ------------------ "Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Aitken Posted September 19, 2000 Author Share Posted September 19, 2000 Good work Hofbauer, that sounds about right. I personally have little respect for journalists (reading the paper I spend more time being annoyed than interested), and I especially don't trust them to get their little heads around military jargon. Of course, the article was written in anticipation of a TV programme, so the BBC is probably more to blame. To put things in perspective, though, the team who produce Scotland On Sunday also do The Scotsman on weekdays, the main broadsheet in Scotland and winner of international awards. In other words, if you want facts, read a book not a newspaper. I think this is a good example of how stories can be distorted and overblown. Personally it reminds me of the Bible, I say at risk of upsetting any Christians hanging around. Stories like Moses parting the Red Sea - you can just imagine how the truth about a drought spanning maybe several months or a couple of years, allowing Moses and company to get across the basin, eventually turned into a story about him walking up, waving his stick and parting the water as if by some miracle. Still, that's life. The majority of people reading the article won't even know what Panzer means. Again, if I feel inclined to watch the programme in question (in a week and a half), I'll pass on anything of interest. David ------------------ They lost all of their equipment and had to swim in under machine gun fire. As they struggled in the water, Gardner heard somebody say, "Perhaps we're intruding, this seems to be a private beach." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Crepitis & DaveMan, you 2 teaming together makes you more like the Twins then I guess? You Scots should be glad that my interrest in your country goes beyond drinking your spirits and shagging your halves... ------------------ Will you trade your Peng for a box of Seanachai? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henri Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Aitken: Personally it reminds me of the Bible, I say at risk of upsetting any Christians hanging around. Stories like Moses parting the Red Sea - you can just imagine how the truth about a drought spanning maybe several months or a couple of years, allowing Moses and company to get across the basin, eventually turned into a story about him walking up, waving his stick and parting the water as if by some miracle. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> You need to read more about the Bible and watch fewer Cecil B. DeMille movies...and why do you feel it necessary to attack Christians on a wargaming forum? Henri (end of thread...I hope...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCC63 Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Hi All, Check out this link. It might clear up some questions. http://www.atomic.pair.com/wwii/magill1.html Cya Coop Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PawBroon Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 Fellow Christian, and I mean it. After all, if I was Jewish or something I would have found out by now surely... Don't be put off by what Brother D just said. He is not schooled in what makes us different. While we were taught in the exquisite art of Behaving, D was out in the boonnies camping in Skye. What you're missing entirely David is that if the sea surrendered to Moise and parted in front of him, it's got nothing to do with that fantasy draught you came up with but rather with the fact that by then he was wearing a kilt and full regalia... ------------------ Will you trade your Peng for a box of Seanachai? [This message has been edited by PawBroon (edited 09-19-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MichaelU Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 The article is written by the Arts and Culture correspondent, so you can imagine how much she knows about the historical background. The hyperbole is also a bit much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 David, you are missing the point about the bible. every christian child is taught in elementary school that you are NOT to read the bible literally. Those are all metaphors etc. based maybe remotely on any actual events. Which is exactly the difference to the hogwash journalists constantly produce, because they claim to have the truth surface in their articles etc. And people are falling for it. They read newspaper / watch news and think it's objective and error free. It isn't, not by a long shot. I will now prepare to compile the info I have so far into a megapost, a post that will make even my other posts pale in size. ------------------ "Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 DCC63 / coop, I am at a loss as to what the link you provided has to do with the story here??? ------------------ "Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 19, 2000 Share Posted September 19, 2000 ok, here is my findings on the "Kilt captures german PzDiv with 23,000 soldiers"-story. I would like to thank the people who helped me with this (even though they'll probably not read this), namely M.Binazzi, S.Orchard and Michi. Thank you very much. First, the question of any Panzerdivision who might be involved in this. S. Orchard wrote: "Well the 9th Pz.Div. took that route Northwards through France on its way to the invasion front but it certainly wasn't captured. The 11th was the other Pz.Div. in Southern France but it took a more Easterly route and it wasn't stopped either. The story of 'Das Reich' is of course well known and is obviously a non starter. Couldn't find any reference to the div.comd. mentioned either. I don't doubt the guy took some prisoners but the amount and unit/units is another question. Reminds me of the allied tendency to call all German tanks Tigers." I looked through what little resources I had and could confirm that no tank division surrendered at that time and place. So, no Tank Division. Michi reported that he found no Major General ELTOW captured with 23,000 men from a tank division in August 1944, but found a story about a Major General ELSTER who surrendered with his group of ca. 28,000 soldiers while onm the retreat in August/September 1944. He contributed the following from the german book "Der deutsche Rückzug aus Frankreich 1944"; by Joachim LUDEWIG I took the liberty to translate this german text into english: ------------------- The soldiers of the Feldkommandantur 541 (field command staff office 541) of Major-General Botho ELSTER, which had the longest distance to cover, cleared the towns of Mont de Marsan and Dax in the southern end of the corps area (LXIV. Army Corps, General Sachs) only on 22nd/23rd of August 1944. The withdrawal of combat units and the ordered "push of mobile forces" into the direction of Dijon meant for the three march groups of LXIV. Army Corps that they were effectively robbed of any protection. To Major-General ELSTER the situation for the last march group, which was under his command, seemed "totally impossible/hopeless". The 159th Infantry Division had been taken out of his group "Süd" (south) and it took with it most of the vehicles, weapons and ammunition. In briefings held on the 1st and 2nd September 1944 in Poitiers ELSTER made clear that under these conditions he found it pointless/senseless to continue the march of his group which numbered 28,000 men. His "argument", which carried little credibility, was that the road designated for the withdrawal, running along Châteauroux - Bourges - Nevers - Dijon, would be "under control of three regular french armies", but this did not convince some of the officers present in Poitiers. Colonel Bauer, who had already fought his way from Pau to Poitiers with his group of 10,000 soldiers, strongly disagreed with ELSTER's suggestion (=of surrender). At least parts of Col. Bauer's group later eventually reached Dijon. ELSTER, however, undertook negotiations with representatives from the FFI and surrendered Sptember 10th to General Macon, the american commander of the 83rd US Infantry Division, who had specifically been brought to the area for the act of surrender. ELSTER had eventually reached his decision (to surrender) after he had been assured that the capture of his forces would be done by the americans and not by the FFI (free french). --------------- apparently, ELSTER lead a retreat column of german soldiers, mostly staff, support, navy crews etc., during the german withdrawal from the bay of biscaya. M. Binazzi related this: "The history of the so-called "Elster Column" refers to the evacuation of South-West France in late summer 1944, all the troops being split up in three different "Marschgruppe" (*marching groups). Two made their way through and reached the German lines, while Generalmajor Elster's group (made up of various troops, among which the Marinebrigade (*navy brigade) Weber (made up of U-Boote crews) and a lot of "administrative" troops, customs officers, RAD (*Reichsarbeitsdienst, = forced/conscripted labor service) personnel and others had to surrender to the Americans (he would not indeed surrender to the FFI who were quite frustrated as they had done the biggest part of the job). A number of photographs have been made of the "official surrender" scene, and a few have been published in Heimdal's album "the Kriegsmarine in France". The "Elster column" was made up of some 20.000 men, with 2000 horses, 1000 horse-carts, 375 lorries, 600 smaller vehicles, 300 machine guns and a large quantity of ammo. The column also included two high ranking officers: Generalmajor Botho ELSTER and Konteradmiral (*rear admiral) Karl Weber, former C-i-C of the Bordeaux arsenal, who was in charge of three regiments: Marschregiment Badermann, Marschregiment von Pflugk-Hartlung, and Marschregiment Kühnemann. There also was a Marineregiment (*navy regiment) Gebauer with three battalions. Most of the men in the Marinebrigade were U-Boote crews, personnel of the naval base and Italians of the BETASOM." that's about it. In conclusion, IMO it seems what happened was that the "Crack Tank Division of Major General Eltow which surrendered to a kilt bluff" was in fact a retreat marching column of roughly over 20,000 rear-area supply, staff and other, navy crew, personnel, neither very combat-worthy nor especially combat-eager, headed by a General Major Elster, who didn't see any point in prolonging this and was ready to surrender to the allies. It might very well have been that the scotsman in the article was present and involved in the negotiations Elster had with the free french (since the scotsman said he was with the french this seems to fit). Now,this all seems like a blatant falsification of historic facts. It doesn't do credit to the brave men which suffered through the hardships on both sides, most of all it lessens the _real_ achievements which Macpherson himself, who probably _was_ involved in this somehow. Now, if it was a german newspaper/TV programme I knew what I would write/email to the author and the superior of the author of the BS-story. However, I'ld be hard put to explain to the scots why it bothers _me_ where I don't even get to see the show. (this whole story reminds me strongly of the BULL**** OR NOT? - investigation show on the B-flick "amazone women on the moon", the sequel to kentucky fried movie IIRC.) ------------------ "Say i think u all need to chill out." (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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