Moon Posted September 13, 2000 Share Posted September 13, 2000 Alright, I just can't resist joining in here. I am working with night vision daily (it's my day job) so obviously I am fascinated somewhat by what the Germans achieved with the IR devices during the war. (Still - if you think they neglected work on the newly invented radar but instead decided for the IR device, it was probably the wrong decision anyway) I don't have much material on the technical part of the Panther IR mount (have printed this thread though for future reference, thanks to anybody involved), but let me add a topic from a different point of view: what many people don't realise is that an active IR device (also known as Generation zero) requires an active illumination of a target with infrared light. The reason is that the device itself is simply not sensitive enough to pick up the already present ambient illumination by itself. This does mean, however, that whoever is looking through such a device (be it commander only, or driver and commander) can only see what is illuminated by the searchlight. In case of the small mount (on the Panther itself) this is less of a problem (but it does limit the use of such a device for searching purposes quite a bit), but when you have to communicate with the searchlight halftrack, it adds a whole new level of communication problems to the tactical situation. Another thing to consider - no matter which system was used (small mount, large halftrack light), both use a considerable amount of power to keep the large lights operating. Unless you happen to tow a generator with you, oprational time is very limited. Not sure if I remember correctly, but somehow 20 minutes of operation time for those halftrack searchlights on a large battery seems to stick in my mind. Thirdly, the IR system was noticed by the Allies relatively early and simple countermeasures were introduced (althugh I am not sure how widely distributed and/or used they were). A small plate of a certain chemical (I can go into more detail if anybody is interested) is sensitive to IR light and starts glowing red when lit by such a light source. Although you rarely pinpoint the source of such light, you do see straight away when somebody is using it. Ah... rambling I guess... is anybody still listening at all? Hey, I'm not offended, I got used to it over the years Martin ------------------ "An hour has 60 minutes, each minute in action has a thousand dangers." - Karl-Heinz Gauch, CO 1st Panzerspähkompanie, 12th SS Panzerdivision Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon: In case of the small mount (on the Panther itself) this is less of a problem (but it does limit the use of such a device for searching purposes quite a bit), but when you have to communicate with the searchlight halftrack, it adds a whole new level of communication problems to the tactical situation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Agreed Martin thats why the plans were for 1 251/20 Uhu per Panther zug, as the Uhu was the C&C vehichle with its FU 5 set. The Uhu could illuminate & target to 1500ms, along with the driver haveing the Falke system, so he wasn't dependant on verbal commands. I have no idea how this worked out in practice, as it is still a open question if the 3, Uhu's assigned to 1/.Pz.Abt 101 for the F.G. 1250 tests on Febuary 12th 1945 ever arrived, I have found no data to date that, confirms their presence during the trials. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Another thing to consider - no matter which system was used (small mount, large halftrack light), both use a considerable amount of power to keep the large lights operating. Unless you happen to tow a generator with you, oprational time is very limited. Not sure if I remember correctly, but somehow 20 minutes of operation time for those halftrack searchlights on a large battery seems to stick in my mind. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well the F.G. 1250 had its own 400watt generator, battery & transformer that were installed in the Ausf.G's that were fitted, they had to remove 1, 3 round ammo bin, part of the floor plate & a shock absorber to install it all. The Uhu used batteries but I dont remeber the specifics off hand. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: an very interesting tidbit is this: "for the same purposes the conmpany Zeiss-Jena had developed the WPG-Z (Wärmepeilgerät - ~heat aiming device), with which tanks could be detected out to 4 kilometers. But because of the dimensions of this device - the diameter of the receiving parabolic antennae was 60cm - it was not pursued as an equipment for the Panther." nothing less but a frickin' thermal imaging device! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes it was, the Donau 60 was developed based partly or inspired by Gaertner's IR work. In one test it detected a tank at 7.5kms, they even reportedly used a few Donau 60 sets on the Atlantic coast. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: my point is the F.G. 1250 & the "Sperber". are the same unit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> "A Marder II (75mm Pak 40) was fitted with a 30cm search light and the Zielgerat 1221 on the superstructure, and with a Fahrgerat 1253 driving device, which was mounted inside the vehicle in front of the driver. Mounting was lateral, and the driver could see through the left side visor using the Fahrgerat as a lateral periscope." [source: "Panther" - Thomas Anderson & Vincent Wai"] I have the feeling the Sperber should be the term used to describe this, and that "FG 1250" refers to one device that made it up. I don't claim to be an expert on this, but from what I know that seems more logical. The book includes a photograph of a Panther Ausf. D with a triple light/image converter set for the commander, gunner and driver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 14, 2000 Share Posted September 14, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sirocco: "A Marder II (75mm Pak 40) was fitted with a 30cm search light and the Zielgerat 1221 on the superstructure, and with a Fahrgerat 1253 driving device, which was mounted inside the vehicle in front of the driver. Mounting was lateral, and the driver could see through the left side visor using the Fahrgerat as a lateral periscope." [source: "Panther" - Thomas Anderson & Vincent Wai"] I have the feeling the Sperber should be the term used to describe this, and that "FG 1250" refers to one device that made it up. I don't claim to be an expert on this, but from what I know that seems more logical. The book includes a photograph of a Panther Ausf. D with a triple light/image converter set for the commander, gunner and driver.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh I don't doubt it Sirocco, F.G. 1250 is the identification used to describe the complete unit, I listed the componets as they were identified last post, do you see Fahrgerat or Zielgerat used ?. All earlier work by Gaertner for Wa Pruf 8 culminated in the F.G. 1250, which was developed for the Panther, which all tests were conducted on, it is the pinacle of their IR development. Their is very little data available on Germman IR, it is one of the most ignored tech aspects in modren print of WW2 as info is so hard to find, & what we do have is sketchy at best, Jentz & Speilburger have documented much of limited data that is available. I should have some new original IR material soon, problem is I can only corospond with the person with the material by Snail mail. Then I plan on working on German WW2 Thermal development. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IntelWeenie Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 There's a pic on this site (last pic, about 2/3 down) that shows a Panther G with some equipment on the TC cupola. Is this one of the IR sets? http://www.shadowsfolly.com/WWII/Germany/PzKpfwV.htm ------------------ Canada: Where men were men, unless they were horses. -Dudley Do-right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IntelWeenie: There's a pic on this site (last pic, about 2/3 down) that shows a Panther G with some equipment on the TC cupola. Is this one of the IR sets? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, thats the F.G.1250. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: Oh I don't doubt it Sirocco, F.G. 1250 is the identification used to describe the complete unit, I listed the componets as they were identified last post, do you see Fahrgerat or Zielgerat used ?...Their is very little data available on Germman IR, it is one of the most ignored tech aspects in modren print of WW2 as info is so hard to find, & what we do have is sketchy at best<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, in that case, I'll ask a question John - what does "F.G." stand for..? Might it not stand for Fahrgerat..? You mention that data is limited but then absolutely refute something that might expand upon what you know. The position I have is that perhaps Fahrgerat 1250 was sometimes used on it's own, and sometimes it was used in conjunction with other devices, to form "solutions". The picture that IntelWeenie posted is different to the picture that I've seen, which has three IR converters, but that might be of "Solution B". Without more detailed information this is all speculation, and no-one should assume they have all the answers - that's always a dangerous position to take. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 Just a fyi, here is a pic from Madmatt's site of his trip to Germany. Panther + IR equipment at a museum they went too.. http://combathq.thegamers.net/special/germany/pics/panther.JPG ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sirocco: Well, in that case, I'll ask a question John - what does "F.G." stand for..? Might it not stand for Fahrgerat..? You mention that data is limited but then absolutely refute something that might expand upon what you know. The position I have is that perhaps Fahrgerat 1250 was sometimes used on it's own, and sometimes it was used in conjunction with other devices, to form "solutions".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sirocco, I think your assuming to much from my posts, this its not a question of who knows all, etc, its an attempt to discuss German IR development, I told you before I dont use the term 'solution', etc my reasons will become clear below. Apperently you got the wrong impression from my posts tone for lack of a better expression, its not what I meant to impart I apologise. Nor am I refuteing your position that devices could be combined etc, or your definition of Fahrgerat meaning "driving device". The "F" in F.G. could be "Fernglas" which means "binocular" as well. The problem is as my German friend tells me no German today would use Fahrgerat as it was used then as well as WW2 military definitions often don't mean today what they did then. I'm pointing out that from my research ,the IR tests done with the Panther Ausf G were conducted with the F.G.1250 their is no "Solution" term used in any of the refrences nor any other IR 'solutions' the whole "Solution" definition to my POV is speculation, as I can't find any refrences to it but one Panther book. I pointed out the same IRI from the F.G.1250 was used in the the "FALKE" system. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> The picture that IntelWeenie posted is different to the picture that I've seen, which has three IR converters, but that might be of "Solution B". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The Picture on that site is the most common refrence photo used to show IR equipped Panthers, its been reprinted in almost every book dealing with the Panthers development. Yes it could be "Solution B" the problem I have and many others, problems concerning this is only one IR system is recorded as installed & tested in trials & combat with the Panther that is the F.G.1250, its componets are also identified piece by piece, nor do any of the the sources dicuss or define a "Solution A" nor a "Solution B". Why because they apperently can't document it nor any tests, or even factory instalation, of an 3rd IRI or even track instalation in individual vehichles, as they can with the F.G.1250. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M Hofbauer Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 I should have some new original IR material soon, problem is I can only corospond with the person with the material by Snail mail. Then I plan on working on German WW2 Thermal development. John, are you planning on putting together your findings in some sort of webpage or something? I would be most interested in your coverage of both of these fascinating aspects, and therefore really looking forward to that! ------------------ "Hehe nah u have some valid points mate but umm well be a bit nicer." (GAZ_NZ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: Apperently you got the wrong impression from my posts tone for lack of a better expression, its not what I meant to impart I apologise.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And I apologise if I misinterpreted anything in your previous posts. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Picture on that site is the most common refrence photo used to show IR equipped Panthers, its been reprinted in almost every book dealing with the Panthers development.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Having gone over the source material I have again several times, I think Fahrgerat 1250 was what made up "Solution A". The photograph I have is of "Solution B", and that has triple image converters, one for the commander, gunner and driver. The identity of those converters - and whether they were different at all - is unclear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sirocco: Having gone over the source material I have again several times, I think Fahrgerat 1250 was what made up "Solution A". The photograph I have is of "Solution B", and that has triple image converters, one for the commander, gunner and driver. The identity of those converters - and whether they were different at all - is unclear.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Sirocco, You may not be aware of this but the photos used in the Concord "Panther" book specificly on page 63 to document "Solution B" usage has been proven to be an fabricated photo both other photo's have been discounted as well. The photo was appertently was included w/o being verified and the authors have since apologised for its use & that they should have researched it more. Unfourtently my notes & corospondance arn't more specific on this, except warning me not to use that photo. This is the reason when discussing IR ppl don't use the concord book. BTW the above does not disprove German research on "Solution B" IMHO I think dismissing the rest of the data over the admitted mistake in useing the fabricated photo is a mistake unless thats proved wrong as well. The only questions I have is why they would use the Asuf.D or A for "Solution B" as the G had a monocular sight as well & the G was the Panther in production at the time & it already had the F.G.1250, so their was no need to weld or add another IR lamp, all they had to do was mount an IRI thru the hull roof by the drivers periscope this would simplify production & standardize it to only the G which was the whole reason they chose the F.G. 1250 for the Ausf G specificly. As well as the fact A's & D's were only available in small numbers. I should have caught this earlier but I never paid attention till I re read your posts to see if my tone had been outa line. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. [This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-15-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 15, 2000 Share Posted September 15, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer: John, are you planning on putting together your findings in some sort of webpage or something? I would be most interested in your coverage of both of these fascinating aspects, and therefore really looking forward to that! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes I plan on working something out with Helge. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Banshee Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 Just another link: http://members.tripod.com/~fingolfen/irh.html ------------------ Veni, vidi, panzerschrecki Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PzKpfw 1 Posted September 16, 2000 Share Posted September 16, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Banshee: Just another link: http://members.tripod.com/~fingolfen/irh.html <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Thx Banshee this makes it easier. Anyone interested in the photo discussed above go to that site and read the Solution B section. Regards, John Waters ------------------ Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The DesertFox Posted September 21, 2000 Share Posted September 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Yes I plan on working something out with Helge.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> John, It´ll be a pleasure for me to host your article when you have it finished. Cheers Helge ------------------ Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate! - The DesertFox - Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sirocco Posted September 21, 2000 Share Posted September 21, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1: You may not be aware of this but the photos used in the Concord "Panther" book specificly on page 63 to document "Solution B" usage has been proven to be an fabricated photo<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I wasn't aware of that. I do wonder how this subject can be better understood when instances like this occur. ------------------ "He belongs to a race which has coloured the map red, and all he wants are the green fields of England..." - Joe Illingworth, Yorkshire Post War Correspondent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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