Panthers & night vision

[ParaBellum]

I recently read something about PzKpfw V Panthers fitted with infrared sights. A Panther platoon operated together with a halftrack which mounted the infrared searchlight. The 2.Panzerdivision had some of those tanks while fighting in the Ardennes. Does anyone know something about the effectiveness of this early night vision equipment or the use in combat?

Since I'm still waiting for the full version of the game, is something like this modelled in CM?

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[M Hofbauer]

SiVisPacem,

"Does anyone know something about the effectiveness of this early night vision equipment or the use in combat? "

there were two distinct versions, one with active and passive IR on the tank, and one having only passive IR on the tank and a huge active IR "searchlight" to bathe the battlefield in IR light mounted on a dedicated SdKfz 251 variant (the "Uhu").

reports on the combat use of these vehicles are sketchy (and any you come across you should approach with a healthy dose of scepticism), but it seems consensus that they _were_ used in combat.

"Since I'm still waiting for the full version of the game, is something like this modelled in CM?"

no.

[ParaBellum]

Thanks Hofbauer, you're pretty fast! You got any numbers of the total tanks produced/outfitted with IR? Did the allies have similar technology in their tanks?

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[PzKpfw 1]

The intial testing was done with 60 Panther G from 4 Panther Abt fitted with the F.G. 1250:

1./Pz.Regt 6

1./Pz.Regt 11

1./Pz.Regt 24

1./Pz.Regt 130

The tests were considered an failure & the FG.1250's removed & the Panther Abts returned back to the front.

A 2nd test was conducted on 12.02.45 with F.G. 1250's mounted on the 1st Kompanie Panther G's from Pz.Abt 101 from Fuehrer Grenadier Division, and the tests were successful.

In 1945 5 Pz Regt's were shipped F.G. 1250 Equipped Panther Ausf G Ie, :

1./Pz.Regt.6 01.03.45 - 10

4./K.p./Pz.Regt 11 .08.04.45 - 10

1./Pz.Regt.29 05.04.45 - 10

1./Pz.Regt. 130 23.03.45 - 10

Ausbildungs Lehrgang Fallinbostel 16.03.45 - 4.

As for an verified combat instance F.G.1250 equipped Panther's with IIIrd Pz.Korps & IV SS Pz.Korps (40 + Panthers) destroyed the Soviet 18th Tank Korpus during the Vistula Order fighting.

Sources: Jentz Thomas L. Germany's Panther Tank.

Waters John. German: Infra Red Sight Development During WWII.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-12-2000).]

[ParaBellum]

Whow! I'm really impressed about the guys on this forum. *bow_down_low*

Thanks for the detailed answer PzKpfw 1.

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Klotzen, nicht kleckern!

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ParaBellum:

Does anyone know something about the effectiveness of this early night vision equipment or the use in combat?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"The first tests of these devices were started in late 1943. Standard production Panthers were sent to Fallingbostel to the Panzertruppenschule (armour school). Here, apparently, two different solutions were developed and used in combat."

"In early 1945, Panzerdivision 'Clausewitz' saw combat in the Fallersleben area... Two of it's Panther tanks were reportedly equipped with IR devices (probably the Sperber). One bit of action took place on the 21st of April 1945. The last ten tanks of 'Clausewitz', followed by a Sd.Kfz.234/1 recce vehicle, approached a US antitank gun position (76mm AT gun M2) at the Weser/Elbe canal. The first attack took place at two o'clock in the morning. The Americans were alert and fired illumination rounds. The leading Panther was hit and slipped into a ditch, and the attack was halted. Then the IR Panthers took cover. After a short time they located the guns and fired some twenty rounds. The entire position was destroyed, and the gun crews and the accompanyng infantry escaped in somewhat of a panic... The attack was a success, revealing the enormous potential of IR technology."

"Panther - Thomas Anderson and Vincent Wai"

[M Hofbauer]

Looked it up and will translate from german:

"(referring to the Panther G) as an additional device the new Bildwandler (~image converter) was to be introduced. Because of the ever increasing enemy air superiority since the invasion in the west the movement of tanks during day was under constant watch of the enemy fighter bombers. To decrease the amount of losses (snip) it was intended to use the Nachtsichtgerät (~night vision device) that had been tested on the PaK 7.5cm as early as Fall 1942. A 200 W (watt) IR searchlight was mounted on the commander's cupola, and with the accompanying telescope the terrain could be seen with a range of 200m and in a 1.2x magnification. The driver did not have night vision and drove under the command inputs from the commander. Because the range was too low for shooting, the use of an illuminating vehicle was planned. The medium apc received the "Uhu" (a night bird, don't know the english equivalent), which was an IR searchlight with 6 kW (kilowatt), and using this the Bildwandler could be used out to a range of 700 meters. The company Leitz-Wetzlar delivered the optics for ca. 800 devices, and in November 1944 the military received the first 63 Panthers with Bildwandler."

an very interesting tidbit is this:

"for the same purposes the conmpany Zeiss-Jena had developed the WPG-Z (Wärmepeilgerät - ~heat aiming device), with which tanks could be detected out to 4 kilometers. But because of the dimensions of this device - the diameter of the receiving parabolic antennae was 60cm - it was not pursued as an equipment for the Panther."

nothing less but a frickin' thermal imaging device!

I remember there also used to be a rather dedicated IR Panther and Vampir (the IR scope for the StGw44) page on the net but I can't seem to find it again right now...on Rob's Panther page there is a small story about infrared Panthers' use, it also has two pics showing a Panther G with the Bildwandler installed.

ParaBellum, AFAIK, the allies didn't use IR or other night sighting devices on tanks (but I stand to be corrected if they did), but they had working IR scopes for the sniper versions of the infantry rifles, which did see considerable combat use.

hey! didn't our very own CM board and CM addict Desert Fox do an article on IR Panthers once?

wait...

yes, here it is, and rather interesting, too!

this is a very interesting must-see of you're interested in the topic!

Desert Fox's Article on IR Panthers

excellent work, Desert Fox!

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"Do want a game that works???" (CPT Stransky)

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

The medium apc received the "Uhu" (a night bird, don't know the english equivalent)

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Owl.

[M Hofbauer]

D'owl!

but I thought about owl and owl would be "Eule". the Uhu is a special subspecies...letz me look it up...hmm you call it a eagle-owl aka long-eared owl.

Uhu is a soundname, it mimics the distinct sound the uhu makes.

[This message has been edited by M Hofbauer (edited 09-12-2000).]

[Zamo]

You mean like an owl makes?

[109 Gustav]

The Germans also made a night fighter called the uhu. It was made of wood, like the Mosquito. However, they ran into trouble with the glue used to bond the plywood, and the fighter never got out of the experimental stage.

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There is nothing certain about war except that one side won't win.

-Ian Hamilton

[M Hofbauer]

109 Gustav, you are confusiong the He 219 Uhu with the Ta 154 Moskito.

The Moskito was the one with the problems you describe. The Uhu was a dedicated night-fighter and, althoug somwhat heavier than the english Mosquito, actually did rather well. Almost 300 were produced.

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"Do want a game that works???" (CPT Stransky)

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

The intial testing was done with 60 Panther G from 4 Panther Abt fitted with the F.G. 1250<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to the information I have, John, the "1250" was one of three Fahrgerat, or night driving devices, the others being 1252 and 1253.

Would those tests have been carried out with one of the three Zielgerat, or aiming devices - 1128, 1221 or 1222?

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>As for an verified combat instance F.G.1250 equipped Panther's with IIIrd Pz.Korps & IV SS Pz.Korps (40 + Panthers) destroyed the Soviet 18th Tank Korpus during the Vistula Order fighting.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you know what combination of IR devices were used during this action?

[M Hofbauer]

Zamo:

u-huh (acknowledging-pun)

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sirocco:

According to the information I have, John, the "1250" was one of three Fahrgerat, or night driving devices, the others being 1252 and 1253.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I'm aware of the confusion over German IR devices I have seen countless refrences to more devices etc.

For the record the F.G. 1250 was an 2 piece device with an 200 watt screened IR searchlight, and reciever gunsight with an effective range of 600ms.

The F.G.1250 was mounted on the Panthers coupola by a hole drilled through the turret roof for a steel band, that connected to an indicator that relayed gun elevation data in relation to the target to the gunner.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Do you know what combination of IR devices were used during this action?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only data I have seen indicates the F.G.1250.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

For the record the F.G. 1250 was an 2 piece device with an 200 watt screened IR searchlight, and reciever gunsight with an effective range of 600ms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm assuming "F.G." refers to Fahrgerat, or night driving device, I will have to leave it to a native German speaker to confirm that.

When you refer to a "two piece device" I'm extrapolating from that - if FG is, indeed, "night driving device", that the other device would have been the Zielgerat, or aiming device.

The range I have for "Solution A", or Sperber (sparrow hawk) is also 500-600 metres.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sirocco:

I'm assuming "F.G." refers to Fahrgerat, or night driving device, I will have to leave it to a native German speaker to confirm that.

When you refer to a "two piece device" I'm extrapolating from that - if FG is, indeed, "night driving device", that the other device would have been the Zielgerat, or aiming device.

The range I have for "Solution A", or Sperber (sparrow hawk) is also 500-600 metres.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes Sirocco, I'm aware of the meaning, I just dont refer to it as "Solution A", "Sperber", or "Solution B" etc, to simplify matters.

Their is also controversey over F.G. 1250's range as some sources state max normal engement range was 400ms, & 600ms on a clear night, and extended to 700ms if an Sd.Kfz.251/20 Uhu was present.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-12-2000).]

[patboivin]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

Uhu is a soundname, it mimics the distinct sound the uhu makes.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is that an onomatopoeia?

[Guest Madmatt]

Amongst other pictures, i have a couple of a Pnther with the IR spotlight mounted on it on CMHQ. Its in the Special Events section. Look for the Germany Trip pictures.

Pictures taken at the Koblenz Museum.

Madmatt

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[The DesertFox]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by M Hofbauer:

The medium apc received the "Uhu" (a night bird, don't know the english equivalent)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for mentioning my page I hope you enjoyed reading it, although it´s far from complete. As usual, every additional published source is heartly appreciated. Any knowledge of additional books that mention the FG1250 / Solution A / Solution B ?

BTW:

This beauty, we call it UHU, lat. Bubo bubo, is called the Eagle Owl in english

some info can be found here:

http://www.owlpages.com/species/eagle/

Cheers

Helge

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Sbelling chequed wyth MICROSOFT SPELLCHECKER - vorgs grate!

- The DesertFox -

Email: desertfox1891@hotmail.com

WWW: http://www.geocities.com/desertfox1891

[This message has been edited by The DesertFox (edited 09-13-2000).]

[Kanonier Reichmann]

This beauty, we call it UHU, lat. Bubo bubo, is called the Eagle Owl in english

some info can be found here:

http://www.owlpages.com/species/eagle/

That poor owl. Looks like somebody has hold of it by the gonads!

Jim R.

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Any knowledge of additional books that mention the FG1250 / Solution A / Solution B ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know of any further books, but I can contribute more on this subject from the source I have.

"Solution A - Sperber (sparrow hawk): The IR set for Solution A consisted of one IR searchlight and one image converter. Inside the commander's cupola a tiny table was fitted, which was fixed in the 12 o'clock position. The table served as a platform for one 30cm IR searchlight (200W) and one image converter. Inside the tank there were a number of additional instruments. A second 12V battery supplied power to a transformer, which transformed the voltage to 17,000V. As the battery could supply this for only about 4 hours, it was charged by a generator.

The commander used this IR set to direct the driver, who could see nothing at night... Additionally, the commander searched targets with his converter. When a target was detected, the commander gave the order to the gunner, either spoken or by body contact (a touch by a hand or a foot on the left shoulder would mean 'turn left'), to move the turret. When the target appeared again in the converter's sight, the platform was fixed in the 12 o'clock position. Then the commander determined the range and, when he was sure of it, gave the order to fire.

The effective rangeof this IR set was about 546 to 655 yards (500 to 600m). This, unfortunately, limited the use of the formidable L/70 gun. For this reason, larger search lights were mounted on Sd.Kfz.251 APC's (the 60mm AA search light was altered to emit IR beams). These APC's had converters as well. When targets were detected, their location would be transmitted via the Fu 5 radio set to the Panther tanks of the unit, which would take over. The guns were fired using flash-proof ammunition to minimize the chance of detection by the target [source: 'Der deutsche Soldat', March 1957]"

The author goes onto discuss Solution B:

"The greatest disadvantage of Solution A was that it offered IR night viewing capability only to the commander. The layout of the Panther Ausf. G and the later Ausf. A's, however, did not allow for providing the gunner with image converters without greater changes to the basic MBT's design. So an intermediate solution was sought and finally found. Older model Panthers (Ausf. D and early Ausf. A), being reworked in German factories, were chosen for a most interesting modification. As these vehicles had a large moveable visor flap in the front armor for the driver, it was easy to add an image converter here... The converter could be fixed upon a tiny mount, which was welded to the frontal armor plate directly under the visor. A 30cm IR light was fitted to the right of the visor.

Both the Ausf. D's and the early Ausf. A were fitted with the binocular telescopic sight, while later versions had a monocular one... The binocular sight could be replaced by two monocular telescopes. In daylight the gunner would use the left monocular for aiming; at night he would use the right one, which had a converter in front of it's frontal aperture. To the left of the periscopes was mounted the 30cm IR searchlight... The commander had an improved IR device, which was used with the Sd.Kfz.251/21 'Falke'. This was a parallel mount comprising a 30cm IR search light, the image converter and a MG 34..."

[source: 'Panther', Thomas Anderson and Vincent Wai]

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sirocco:

I don't know of any further books, but I can contribute more on this subject from the source I have.

source:'Der deutsche Soldat', March 1957]"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a description of the F.G.1250. Their is also some confusion over the use of "Falke" as in that it is listed as the name of the IR device developed for AFV driveing, & was intended for use on the Sd.Kfz.251/20 & "Falke" is used as the name of the 251/20 in some material as well.

Regards, John Waters

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Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-13-2000).]

[Sirocco]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PzKpfw 1:

This is a description of the F.G.1250.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take your point. But "FG 1250" is suggestive of Fahrgerat 1250, which would lead me to wonder whether the Zielgerat 1128, 1221 or 1222 was used in conjunction with it to form Sperber.

Well, interesting discussion of an obscure topic.

[PzKpfw 1]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sirocco:

I take your point. But "FG 1250" is suggestive of Fahrgerat 1250, which would lead me to wonder whether the Zielgerat 1128, 1221 or 1222 was used in conjunction with it to form Sperber.

Well, interesting discussion of an obscure topic. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sirocco, my point is the F.G. 1250 & the "Sperber". are the same unit. The F.G.1250 was the height of German IR sight development, and the only IR unit tested & operationaly used in Panthers.

The F.G. 1250 consisted of, a front lens unit with 7 lens with a 1:1 feild of veiw @ 30^, (1:15 @ 10^ on the Uhu) a monocular sight 5x magnification,(10x on the Uhu) granulated for Pzgr.39 & SprGr., Type 126 18kv Infra Red imageing tube. 200 Watt screened IR searchlight & a G.G. 400, 400watt generator, a battery & a high voltage transformer.

One thing I can tell you from my experiences is that their are many identification problems concerning German IR development, use of terms such as "Sperber" "Solution" 1 etc, only tend to confuse the issue, as they are correct in context & in the end, are all used to describe the same system.

Which is despite the use of 'Fahrgerat' the F.G.1250, while makeing it more complicated then it needs to be by haveing it appear as if their were other IR sets or componets of which their was not Ie, the Falke used the F.G. 1250's Type 126 IRI tube yet I have seeen it refered to as a whole new unit.

If your interested in a photo of the F.G. 1250 to compare to your refrences, Helge has a good scan on his sight, as well as an line drawing, that shows all the upper componets.

Regards, John Waters

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[This message has been edited by PzKpfw 1 (edited 09-14-2000).]