Taper Bore AT-Guns

[Otrex]

I am curious to know how the designers (and players) of CM feel about the inclusion of taper-bore AT-guns into the new vehicle patch that I keep reading about. This weapon certainly was around in '44-'45 even if it was limited by constant ammo shortages. I'm sure it made many Sherman drivers grind their gears trying to back away!

[Simon Fox]

I am sure they are extremely unlikely to ever be included. The reason is rarity.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>This weapon certainly was around in '44-'45<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you have any basis for this statement: like what units were equiped with them, at what level and what was the ammunition supply and production situation at that stage of the war? I would have thought they weren't used much after 1943 since the only accounts I have come across of 'needle-gun' use have been in that period (ie Sicily and Italy).

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I'm sure it made many Sherman drivers grind their gears trying to back away!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Just about any German AT weapon would have that effect hehe

------------------

"Fatso-the battlers' prince"

[:USERNAME:]

Theres a web site by a relative of a german that was equipped with these taper bore weapons. Theres even a cool pic of the germans opening up a t34 and looking at the mess inside.

I believe they withdrew these weapons early (no tungsten) and more than likely used the carriages for something else. They couldnt fire a HE shell I think or one that was worthwhile. The guys relative ended up in stugs I believe.

They also used a taper bore optical sight. It shrank the image so that the vitamin A depleted german couldnt see it so good. Thats if he took the lens cap off. Theres nothing but anecdotal proof that they did.

Lewis

[Stoffel]

I did some digging and found this.

The gun was the Pak 41.

And according to the writer it was a better gun than the pak40.

Here is the story.

Pak 41 a squeeze-bore gun of unusual configuration in that the barrel was not tapered throughout its length but was parallel for the first 2.95 m ,then tapered at one in twenty for 25cm,one in twelve for 18cm,then became parallel again for the final 61 cm.

This design compressed the 7,5cm tungsten-core Pzgr41 round into a 5,5cm ,imparting very high muzzle velocity and a smaller-hence kinetically more effective- impact area.

The barrel was constructed in two halves so that the squeeze part could be unscrewed and replaced when worn.After about 500 shots.

Unfortunately as we have seen earlier tungsten was in short supply during 1941 and virtually run out in the following year so only 150 were built.

Had it remained in production it would undoubtedly have supplanted the Pak 40 since it was capable of defeating the armour of any tank.

Weight -1.356kg

weight round-2.59 kg with a velocity of 1.127 m/sec.

penetration-102/124mm at 2000meters against vertical and 30 armour

145/177 at 1000meters

171/209 at 500 meters

Max range was 4000meters but this wasn't relevant sinc there was no HE round available.

Most guns wer used by the paratroops while some found their way to the gebirgsjaegers.

This answers most questions I think.

So not to be included in the game.

(shame though)

[Jarmo]

"The gun had superb performance, but the lack of tungsten rendered it useless in 1943."

- Ian Hogg, "Twentieth century artillery"

[Otrex]

Thanks for the input guys. It really got me even more curious as I was positive the Germans used taper bore guns until the end of the war.

I did some checking and here is what I found (summarized):

There were 3 types of taper bore produced:

The 2.8 cm PzB 41, the 4.2 cm lePak 41, and the 7.5 cm pak 41.

And yes, it is certainly true that due to the rarity of tungsten the two heavier calibres of gun passed out of use at some point or another. However the smallest 2.8 Pzb 41 "stayed in use in 1945 as its small rounds made few demands on availible stocks" of tungsten. (Source:Encyclopedia of Weapons of WWII, pg 185)

I find it interesting that the muzzle velocity was 1400m per second (4593ft). The armor penetration was 56 mm at 365m (400 yds)! This gun was made for both army, and airborne forces (the latter version using a lighter carriage).

Certainly a weapon of this proficiency (sp?) is something that would have a valid place in a rare weapons patch of some sort.

As a side note, the largest calibre of taper bore (the 7.5cm) was able to penetrate 171mm of armor at 455m (500 yds). A quite impressive display for a weapon that would still be kicking around in late 1944 (150 total production)

------------------

"My Baloney has a first name..."

[This message has been edited by Otrex (edited 10-08-2000).]

[ASL Veteran]

According to Ian Hogg, the PAK 41 "was principally used in the Middle East, and, to a lesser degree, in the early days of the Russian campaign." So I wouldn't count on seeing it until CM 3. It was really more of a heavy ATR than an ATG. I think the French had a taper bore gun too - 25mm I think it was. Ian Hogg also says that the supply of ammunition stopped in 1942 and that the weapon fell out of use.

[Otrex]

I just found a picture dated 1945 showing a small calibre (the 28mm?) taper bore gun mounted on a german light truck, thus proving its use by non-paratroop divisions and its use after 1944.

------------------

"My Baloney has a first name..."

[Gotcha]

:USERNAME:, what is the URL for the website you mentioned above?