range

[iggi]

I see that you can have range displayed in the orders phase by using the 'l' key. Couldn't you have range displayed in that phase when you are giving a move order? You already get what terrain the curser is at with a move order so why not include range? Why make the player take the extra step of using the 'l' key?

[Fionn]

The "l" key isn't an extra step it is a separate process./

The "l" key activates the LOS function.

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>a separate process<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wouldn't prevent it from being activated when you press a move order key. Two processes can run simultaneously. Actually, that happens anyways cause you get the terrain that the curser is in always updated. Correct me if I'm wrong. This way you get the LOS function as you are planning your movement and not as a another step.

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 04-23-2000).]

[Guest Ol' Blood & Guts]

I asked this question a while back and I believe Steve or somebody said that to include range in a movement order would be giving out too much information.

Or wait a minute, the question could have been an ETA indicator to a particular spot. Hell I can't remember, but the answer was the same, (too much information).

------------------

"Fear is the path to the Dark Side.

Fear leads to anger.

Anger leads to hate.

Hate leads to suffering."

--Jedi Master Yoda

[iggi]

It must have been an ETA indicator cause the L key already gives that info. Question is , why have me make two steps instead of one?Make it simple, have the LOS function 'on' all the time, (in the orders phase).

[This message has been edited by iggi (edited 04-24-2000).]

[Fionn]

Too much info IMO.

To me having a LOS function inherent in the move function isn't intuitive and I'd bet it's the same for many others.

[iggi]

I don't mean knowing the range from waypoint to way point. I mean that pressing say F for fast movement will show you the range before you actually plot the waypoint. When the first waypoint is plotted, the range given is still from your starting point. No new info gained. So all you are doing is using the LOS function without having to alternate between the F/M/U keys and the L key. No new info gained, just done faster.

[Guest Scott Clinton]

> No new info gained, just done faster.

Sorry, this arugement does not sway the 'faithful'. I have tried it myself (on other issues).

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Guest tom w]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fionn:

Too much info IMO.

To me having a LOS function inherent in the move function isn't intuitive and I'd bet it's the same for many others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi

I agree with Fionn.

I think we can see too much and know

too much as it is. If you have read my other

posts you might conclude I would prefer to

see more fog of war (FOW) and less info.

Again thats just my opinion.

I would say that getting that exact

info as to how far a certian point

is while using any move function (hunt, move fast, whatever) is too much info.

Of course I'm the guy would like to see terrain FOW and the chance that some

forward recon units might actaully get

lost on their move so, you can

see my "Less info is better" perspective

is perhaps diametrically opposed to yours.

But it is still a FUN Game

Even the 3 demo scenarios

I'm sure the release

version will give is all

some new features and concepts

to discuss. As I understand it

there will be some new (mulitple, up to 7?)

levels of spotting accuracy to enchance

the fog of war for unit spotting.

I think that is a GOOD thing!

Can anyone share with the rest of us

what those varying levels of spotting

accuracy will be.

we can guess sound contact is one of them...

-tom W

[Black Sabot]

Now this is just my opinion, but i would think a Tiger crashing thru the front door of the house you're hiding in represents the highest level of spotting

[iggi]

Tom, there is no new info gained. You can now select a tank, then decide to check range before you plot so you press L and then press F and then plot. All I'm saying why go through that hassle? Why don't we have a sepeate key to check terrain? We don't cause it's already included when you are plotting movement. Try it yourself. Select a tank, press F and move the curser around the map. When you move your curser over different terrain, the terrain type is indicated on the menu. Why don't we have to press a separate key to get the terrain type?

I'm not asking for a more revealing LOS function. I want the exact same one. You can tell me that it's too late to change code but don't tell me it's not logical.

[PanzerLeader]

I happen to agree with iggi on this point, although it isn't a major one.

Having it all in one move doesn't give more info. If one wants the info, one can access it by using the "l" key. The amount of info remains the same, it's just a matter of getting to the info quicker, thus making the gameplay less clumsy. For me this remains a WW2game, not a WW2sim. Anything to make the game more enjoyable whilst remaining realistic should be welcome.

[SS_PanzerLeader]

Yah I got to agree with PZL and Iggi - if you can access this info already, then having to take an additional step should be eliminated

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SS_PanzerLeader.......out

[Guest Scott Clinton]

> if you can access this info already, then

> having to take an additional step should be

> eliminated...

Hmmmmm...now where have I heard this before?

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Please note: The above is solely the opinion of 'The Grumbling Grognard' and reflects no one else's views but his own.

[Ben Galanti]

I don't think it'd be giving any new info by having the range listed in the move commands. I'm not sure how much I'd use it, but it could be useful...

I still don't agree with you about that other thing though, Scott

[Guest tom w]

Hi Iggi

I would like to say that this is just my opinion. I understand your suggestion

it would make the game more user friendly,

if your suggestion was implemented.

you said:

"This way you get the LOS function as you are planning your movement and not as a another step."

But the way I see it the LOS tool is

a tool that tells you what you can actaully see or spot for the purpose of shooting at something NOT a laser guided range finder to tell you how far you can travel.

I would suggest (and this is perhaps too radical) that the LOS tool "L" NOT display the range. I would suggest that range is a function of targeting and should only be

available when using "t" to target something.

We differ philosphically, here.

The way I see it is that you are plotting

the move for the next minute and you "should"

be doing it faster than by determining range

for each unit you want to move.

Now I don't want to get into a big

disagreement about this, as I understand

your focus on play-ability and trying to

make it the turn quicker and make the

user interface more intuitive.

But I for one would like to see

(if we could play on Super computers)

real time play activity so that there is no

fact NO time to fiddle around determining

the range from the LOS tool before

plotting every move for every unit.

This is not a criticsm it is just a

different way of perceiveing the

way the game "should" be played.

As it is now you have all the time

in the world to use the LOS tool

to determine Range to plot movement.

yes it takes an extra step, and yes if

the target tool was the ONLY range finding

tool available I'm sure that you and some

other players would also use that

to plot the range of certain moves

for certain units.

BUT, I would ask, should we be able to

determine the EXACT range down to the meter

anyway, maybe the LOS tool should

guess for us and report back and

say "oh that looks like about

400-450 meters" (Not 425 meter

plu or minus 25 meters that would be

too easy, but reall guess, could be

range of 400 meters or a range of 450

meters or anything in between)

My point is that for turns that

are based on a 1 minute time scale

things should be happeing VERY fast

and the LOS range finding tool should

not be so accurate.

I think the game in general should have less

info and have more of a "fly by the seat of your pants" feel or approach it to simulate more of an adrenline rush in combat.

I think the battles should have more

uncertainty more chaos and lots more fog

of war in every place that it can reasonalbly

programed into the game AND still make it FUN and play-able and enjoyable.

I think it has a VERY good balance of that

right now. But I will always vote for more

FOW and more battlefield chaos.

Just a difference of opinion nothing more.

I know that your suggestion would surely

make the game quicker to play and easier to play.

I'm sure we are both eagerly awaiting

the relaese version.

I wonder what new features we will

find that we like and dislike.

-Tom w

Originally posted by iggi:

That wouldn't prevent it from being activated when you press a move order key. Two processes can run simultaneously. Actually, that happens anyways cause you get the terrain that the curser is in always updated. Correct me if I'm wrong. This way you get the LOS function as you are planning your movement and not as a another step.

[Guest Big Time Software]

Well, there are bunch of questions that need to be answered when we think about putting in features. Here is a brief list of the conceptual aspects (putting aside technical for the moment)...

1. What gameplay benefits does it provide?

2. Does the feature add/detract from realism?

3. Does it add/detract from gameplay?

4. What percentage of CM's gamers would actually use such a feature?

There is no exact science to this, but you get the point. If a feature manages to survive the first 4 questsions on the positive side, then one more question is asked -> is it really necessary to add this? An overall negative impact on the game rules it out, a neutral one makes it not high on our list, and a generally positive one makes us plan on how to put it in (baring technical limitations of course).

I would score this feature as such:

1. Negative - There is no benefit over the existing system which is done through estimating (or gut feeling if you will) and the use of the LOS tool to judge large distances.

2. Neutral - But just barely. It neither adds to nor detracts from realism in any significant way in terms of its impact on the game. However, in real world terms, it does "detract" as no unit commander had a GPS system to know exactly how many meters it was from A to B, so there is an argument to be made that this gives out too much detailed info. The LOS tool gives out such info, but it was designed for estimating distances for AFVs for the most part, and that would be known to the AFV commander. And in any case, there should be at least one way to easily determine distances that are fairly large. Estimating under a few hundred meters is easy, over that becomes more difficult.

3. Neutral - Pros and Cons balance each other out. The information gained is balanced out by interface clutter.

4. Low - if this feature went in we would make it optional and personally would never use it. We strongly suspect that this is the type of thing that people would most likely never really use, and therefore either toggle it off or simply not pay it any attention.

In short, this feature does not pass the test for being put on the "short list" of things to add. Not a horrible feature, mind you, so it isn't 100% rulled out. But compared to the dozens of other things on The List already, this one scores way down at the bottom.

My basic questions to you are... why is this necessary and would it improve your gameplay? I honestly have no idea why you need to know the exact meters between waypoints. It simply isn't necessary in our opinon. Estimating distances based on terrain is pretty easy to do by eye, and being off +/- 10 meters or so doesn't make any difference what-so-ever. On the other hand, a distance readout would futher clutter the interface, and therefore we are quite reluctant to put in something that is not needed but adds to clutter.

Steve

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I honestly have no idea why you need to know the exact meters between waypoints<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I don't want to know the exact distance between waypoints. I was asking that the LOS function show the distance that the curser is from the selected unit *while* you are plotting waypoints. The distanct will always be a reference between the original unit's position and the curser.

This has nothing to do with waypoints. Waypoints have cropped up because in movement mode, you can plot waypoints. So people think I am associating the two.

Look what happens when you use the L key. You get range and the terrain the unit is in as you move your curser around. Now, select a unit and press the F key. What do you see around your curser? You see the terrain that the curser is over. I am asking that you see the same thing that you see when you hit the L key, this way you don't have to hit the L key to check a distance/LOS while you are plotting waypoints. It would save you the hassle of switching back and forth between the L key. All you have to hit is a movement key(m/f/u). This has nothing to do with distance between waypoints. Sure it's not a priority. I just want to know if you think that's more efficient.

[PanzerLeader]

Tom W, if you want such realism go out there, enlist in the Russian Army, and fight for those oilfields!

Truly if a game were to become realistic to this point it wouldn't be fun anymore. If you want to be really realistic then we should not be able to change the camera's position during the film, in fact the view should stay that of a 1st person shooter from the commander's point of view!

And you should have real dialogues with subordinate commanders, not giving orders to individual squads but overall orders for the entire battalion you're responsible of! Sounds like a hassle doesn't it? Oh, and if you get killed the game's over...(hmmm...maybe these aren't bad ideas after all! )

[Moon]

Iggi - since the code for CM1 is finished, I doubt that you will see this change made. But for CM2 - why do you need the exact distance for a movement order? That was Steve's question, I believe... and the reason I am asking: in almost a year of playing CM I have never used to LOS tool to determine the exact movement distance, neither have the beta testers, I think.

[Guest tom w]

I agree with moon

I would be interested to know if any other players

feel they need to know the distance in meters while

plotting moves.

I have never used it and I can't figure out

why you are trying to use distance info

from the LOS tool to plot moves.

PLEASE don't tell us you are doing a mathmatical

calculation based on a known speed to determine

at what exact second during a one minute game

turn a specific unit will arrive at a given place

based on your knowledge of the distance you are

sending it and the rate of speed at which it

travels...

Please don't tell us that..

But we are sincerely curious as to why distance

info is necessary for you to plot moves....

-tom w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moon:

Iggi - since the code for CM1 is finished, I doubt that you will see this change made. But for CM2 - why do you need the exact distance for a movement order? That was Steve's question, I believe... and the reason I am asking: in almost a year of playing CM I have never used to LOS tool to determine the exact movement distance, neither have the beta testers, I think.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>why do you need the exact distance for a movement order<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who said I need to know the exact distance for a movement order?? I want to be able to have the function of the L key while I'm doing something else so I don't have to leave what I am doing to go press L.

Suppose I select a unit in order to move it and I then think...hmm I wonder how far that mg nest is? I would have to press the L key and then press F again to plot waypoints.

Actually, once you are in the orders phase, the LOS function should be always running when you select a unit for what ever reason. this way you never have to press L.

[iggi]

To make sure I am clear. I want the functionality of the L key without pressing L. So have the LOS feature running all the time whenever you select a unit.

It runs when you press the T key or the L key but not the U,M,or F key. It's not a big deal now. This whole thread has grown because I think I haven't made my self clear.

[Guest tom w]

ok

WELL I now do really understand Iggi's desire to multi-task

From your most recent post I can really understand what you are saying.

Perhaps what you are suggesting is adding a modifier key

like holding down the alt key or option key while

selecting F or M or U (once the unit is selected while plotting the move) so that the distance comes up at the

curser destination as well.

I understand your desire to mulitask and check out

LOS info while actually plotting a move.

I'm not sure I agree with it

But I do clearly understanding wanting to

kill two birds with one stone.

-tOm w

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iggi:

Who said I need to know the exact distance for a movement order?? I want to be able to have the function of the L key while I'm doing something else so I don't have to leave what I am doing to go press L.

Suppose I select a unit in order to move it and I then think...hmm I wonder how far that mg nest is? I would have to press the L key and then press F again to plot waypoints.

Actually, once you are in the orders phase, the LOS function should be always running when you select a unit for what ever reason. this way you never have to press L.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[iggi]

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>wanting to

kill two birds with one stone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes that's what I mean.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Perhaps what you are suggesting is adding a modifier key<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>That's not necessary. When you press the T key, the LOS function kicks in without pressing any extra keys.

When in the orders phase and you select any unit, the LOS function should kick in automatically giving range from unit selected to your curser. You should never have to press an L key.

When you want to move a unit and you select it, the LOS function kicks in and the game should assume you have pressed the F key.

If you wanted to press the M key, well just press it. Point is you probably want to check LOS and order a fast move so these routines should kick in once you select a unit.

This doesn't affect a player that wanted to press the M key either. He would still have to press the M key. If he doesn't, the game assumes you pressed the F key. Meanwhile the LOS funtion is always on.

There's another bird to kill with that stone.