Guest tom w Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 I salute BTS This period of history and this European theater and the AFV's from this period are without a doubt, in my opinion, the most fun to model for the purpose of engaging in small unit tactics. My own point of view is they started with the most fun and interesting part of WW II first. Sure if you like over running inferior armed forces you might want to play in 1939 or 1940, but how much play balance is there in german tanks over running Polish Cavalry units? No, this is truly the most interesting part of the war. I know it is modeling battles after D-Day but are there/will there be any Amphibious D-Day landings/assaults modeled in the Gold Scenario's? (Gold Beach How well does the game handle a D-Day like beach assualts? Could they be recreated in the Scenario editor? Are those Duplex Drive swimming shermans with the twin props sticking out the back of them modeled? Just curious.. Thanks -tom w P.s. ok, two year old question period in now over, its time for a nap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 but how much play balance is there in german tanks over running Polish Cavalry units? Given that Polish Cavalry units had relatively abundant supply of anti-tank rifles that could penetrate just about any German tank of the period, I fail to see why they would be any more vulnerable than, say, American infantry of 1944. I know that the legend of Poles lancers charging tanks is deeply rooted in the common picture of WWII but it is still only a legend and it never happened. It is most probably based on an occurrence where Poles charged German supply column and were in process of destroying it when a section of German armored cars arrived the scene. The Poles quickly retreated but lost some of their numbers to MG fire. The next day some Italian war correspondents visited the site and their German guide said something like: "this is what happens when you fight tanks with cavalry" and the reporters took it to mean that they had charged tanks. No, this is truly the most interesting part of the war. Well, I personally prefer Ostfront 1944, but YMMV. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 My personal favorite is OstFront 1943. Kharkov(twice), Kursk, the Dniepr battles....even a bit of Stalingrad left Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Los Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 CM will handle beach assault scenarios just fine (I will argue that CM can handle most all variants forms and flavors of land combat ina sterling fashion.) However you won't see any DD tanks LCIs or even beach terrain types in the initial release, though perhaps in future release or ptaches some of these can be lobbied for. However I have already created (in beta) a very interesting/fun/challenging D-day type scenario (there were a few workarounds needed) that I'm sure you guys will be able to check out on WIld Bill's site after release. The only thing required to make CM handle anything you want is immaginiation.... Los Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 I think that the Eastern Front and the Mediterranean Fronts will be as interesting as Beyond Overlord. tom w, I've been bitting my lip for a long time on something here. I realize it's maybe your style, but it gets a bit annoying sometimes. Could you please not hit the "Enter" key after every 5 or 6 words when you type? I mean it's a bit cumbersome to have to scroll a whole page just to read 20 words. ------------------ "Fear is the path to the Dark Side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering." --Jedi Master Yoda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 Tom w- The Poles never charged tanks with cavalry. It is a fact however, that on 4 September 1939, the XVI Panzer Corps lost many tanks to the Wolynska Cavalry Brigade and to the Polish Air Force which was bombing them with Los bombers. This attack surprised the Germans who thought that all Pole bombers were destroyed. Not so! The Wermacht requested fighter cover, casuing much consternation in Berlin and slowing the German advance a bit. Instead of easing attacks by the Poles, encounters increased between each air force. (Source: Polish Air Force 1939-1945 by Dr. Jan Koniarek) And the Poles were wiped out on the ground, 1st day of the campaign. Nope. Hope they have air support in CM 5, is it? Early War should be quite fun! I can hardly wait for "Med" to come out though. Rommel is one of the Germans I actually admire.It'll be tough picking sides. ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 The Germans lost about 16,000 killed, 32,000 wounded, 674 tanks, and lots of other equipment in the Polish campaign. And it was both the first time anyone had faced a modern blitzkrieg, AND the first time the Germans put one into practice. It's challenging to play for the same reason that Beyond Overlord is- on a local basis, there were many interesting conflicts, despite the foregone conclusion of the outcome. To me, France 1940 is the most interesting of all. The magnitude of the German victory was due to superior tactics, against (often) locally superior enemy forces and tanks. To me this makes an interesting game. It would be fun to counterattack with Matildas and Somuas using German-style tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tom w Posted April 27, 2000 Share Posted April 27, 2000 Ok I'll try the not hitting the enter key this is just a test of a very long run on sentence to see what it looks like with no enters sorry for the long posts full of all those "enter" (return on a mac?) keystrokes... -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts: tom w, I've been bitting my lip for a long time on something here. I realize it's maybe your style, but it gets a bit annoying sometimes.Could you please not hit the "Enter" key after every 5 or 6 words when you type? I mean it's a bit cumbersome to have to scroll a whole page just to read 20 words. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
killmore Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 Polish historians have two confirmed cases of cavalry charging the tanks. In both cases they were using the molotov coctails to light tanks up. Poland had also some tanks that were equal quality to 1939 german tanks. I don't know many details here. The fun thing might be the armored trains! The picture of polish cavalry charge with sword in hand was German propaganda tool. [This message has been edited by killmore (edited 04-27-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tom w: Ok I'll try the not hitting the enter key this is just a test of a very long run on sentence to see what it looks like with no enters sorry for the long posts full of all those "enter" (return on a mac?) keystrokes... -tom w<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Hey appreciate man! No hard feelings, just got tired of scrolling down the freakin' page man! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tom w Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 no problem, it will take alot more than that to hurt my feelings, but feel free to try -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ol' Blood & Guts: Hey appreciate man! No hard feelings, just got tired of scrolling down the freakin' page man! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Foobar Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I realize it's maybe your style, but it gets a bit annoying sometimes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> LMAO That is hilarious coming from you OB&G...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest tom w Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 thanks Fion I wondered about that myself, but what the heck I can write long sentences that go right to edge of the page like everyone else.... Heaven knows I would not want to "annoy" OB&Gs -tom w <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Foobar: LMAO That is hilarious coming from you OB&G...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ol' Blood & Guts Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Captain Foobar: LMAO That is hilarious coming from you OB&G...... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh you think I'm funny do you? How am I funny? Do I freakin' amuse you? How am I funny? Just a little fun from the movie, "Goodfellas" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 I wouldn't say that allied strategy in 1940 was drastically inferior to that of Germany. In some cases it was much better. The reaction time of the French army after the defeats of May was not short of brilliant. They managed to hold their front line longer, with less of everything, with less quality troops in June 1940 than in May. Most German casualties took place after May. Many Panzer Divisions were mauled during the conflict. The main reason that they survived so well was due to the fact that they were advancing and could repair damaged vehicles. French and British vehicles had to be left where they were, even due to mere engine break downs. The Belgians, French and British faught very well, usually when they were tactically outgunned. The 12th British Division put up a brave fight against Germans trying to cross the Somme. The French Cavalry Corps of 3 Light Mechanized Divisions (actually heavy tank divisions) were extremely successful. The British attack at Arras involved a mere 2 Battalions of Tanks and 2 of Infantry and managed to shatter an SS (Totenkoph, SP) Division (albiet at this time the SS was not the crack fighting force of 1944) and damaged Rommels 7th Panzer. The British had to withdraw due to a lack of mission focus. Calais, Boulogne and Dunkirk were all heavily contested by the Allies. The Belgians were a much better army than history allows. I would have to say that a 1940 version of CM will be just as interesting as 1944. There were the versions of the King Tigers in 1940, they were just not German! The level of equipment used is as complex as in 1944, and the terrain would be virtually the same. The Polish army in 1939 actually had 1000 AFV's of varrying quality. Most of the Cavalry Brigades had accompanying tanks. These were just little tankettes with HMG's, but, the Germans were mostly armed with Panzer I and II tanks at this time as well! The Polish Air Force managed to account for around 500 German planes (also due to their AA, of which was very modern). The Poles were rarely engaged on a 1:1 basis. Their quality, just like that of the French, Dutch, Belgians and British in 1940 cannot be measured by German success. The Germans would have been as defeated if the Allies were to have used the same blitzkrieg tactics on them in 1939-40. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrD Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 The early war is tough to simulate because much of the German advantage lay in radios which they alone (I think) had in every tank. How would you simulate this? Also, many of the German's victories were the result of better tactics, how would you simulate this short of having the better player always be German? Having said that, I'm not sure how much of the German's tactical superiority was evident at the scale CM is played at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark IV Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Major Tom: I wouldn't say that allied strategy in 1940 was drastically inferior to that of Germany.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I'm sure you don't think I did either. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Belgians, French and British faught very well, usually when they were tactically outgunned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Tactically out-maneuvered and generally outfought, nonetheless. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>I would have to say that a 1940 version of CM will be just as interesting as 1944.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> The points you made are why I think so, too. The French have taken quite a beating in pop history for their eventual collapse, but the facts are that they tried very hard and had some very decent, even superior, equipment. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>The Germans would have been as defeated if the Allies were to have used the same blitzkrieg tactics on them in 1939-40.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, that would be interesting to game. I'm not sure I completely agree; the best defense against a blitzkrieg is a good counter-blitzkrieg, and the Germans were in a much better position to do that. They were trained and equipped for both combined arms assault and defense in depth, well-articulated massed armor maneuver, and were generally better-motivated and psychologically conditioned. Successful or not, they would not have been caught as unprepared for highly mobile warfare as were their adversaries in 1939-40. DrD: One way to simulate radios at the CM scale is to extend the effects of command radius. Vehicles not in very close proximity to commanders would suffer greater delays in response to orders. German infantry formations would probably have higher morale status. German player would benefit from more and closer Jabo support (a mixed blessing, sometimes). I don't think the better player needs to play Germans (it is a game, after all). A lot of the German superiority was in higher troop training and squad level assault tactics. This can be quantified and simulated, if not exactly depicted. [This message has been edited by Mark IV (edited 04-28-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PanzerLeader Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 There were cases of Polish cavalry charging german Panzers becasue they thought the Grmans used dummie-tanks, made of wood!! I recall reading that in a few books, but it probably only happened in the very first day of the war... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speedy Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 Tom w try going up against a Char B in a Pzkpw II . The Germans suffered about 60,000 KIA in the 2 months of the France 1940 campaign. After the British evacuated the French put up quite a fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RudeLover Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 The issues of command and control for radioless tanks will come up in CM2 with Russian vehicles. At present in CM I think that all vehicles are considered to be in C&C regardless of location due to radios. Thus HQ vehicles are not needed or modeled. Perhaps Russian AFVs will need to be in LOS of a designated HQ vehicle or suffer penalties? Shooting the platoon commander's tank would then be a good tactic (if you can figure out which it is...). Also, IIRC, the Polish 7TP tank was more than a match one-on-one for any German AFV in 1939. One of the intriguing aspects of CM4 will be trying out combined arms tactics using Poles vs. Germans (and maybe Russians?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Tom Posted April 28, 2000 Share Posted April 28, 2000 Well, during the advance into France there wasn't too much coordination between armoured and infantry formations in the German army. Vast gaps appeared in the pincer where entire French divisions were allowed to retreat south. Hitler, and the German High command were extremely afraid of a counter attack in-between their armoured and infantry formations. Also, being on the offensive and defensive are completely different things. The attacker gets so many advantages over the defender. Concentration of force being the primary, and the fact that they are advancing can result in damaged/immobilized vehicles having the chance to be repaired. The Allied forces were very coordinated between infantry and armour, as, most of the armour was left as infantry support. Plus, the morale puch that blitzkrieg tactics throw on the defender add a lot to the victory of the attack. I doubt that in 1940 the German armed forces would have had a much better reaction to an allied blitzkrieg attack than the allies did in 1940. It also must be noted that the focus of the German attack in 1940 was based on the 9th Army, possibly the worst formation in the French Army. If the Blitzkrieg pincer would have hit the 1st French Army, it would probably have been blunted. Any other French or British Army would not have crumbled as fast as the 9th Army either. Where the good quality Allied formations faught, they scored VERY well against the Germans. Unfortunately, by the time the good formations got into the fight the battle was decided. Yes, they were outmanuvered. But, switch sides, with the poorest German formations facing the main allied assault and the situation would probably have been the same. Remember the attack on Arras. A combined German force of 2 Divisions was nearly defeated by only 4 Battalions of British Infantry and Tanks. Rommel thought he was being attacked by 5 Armoured and Infantry Divisions. Imagine the result if he actualy was! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted April 29, 2000 Share Posted April 29, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> thanks Fion I wondered about that myself, but what the heck I can write long sentences that go right to edge of the page like everyone else....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Umm I haven't posted to this thread before tom . Methinks thou mistakest me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tss Posted April 29, 2000 Share Posted April 29, 2000 PanzerLeader wrote: There were cases of Polish cavalry charging german Panzers becasue they thought the Grmans used dummie-tanks, made of wood!! Nope. Not a single documented case. It's a popular legend, though. - Tommi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gen. Sosaboski Posted April 30, 2000 Share Posted April 30, 2000 Ok, we might be the butt of many jokes, but we aren't THAT stupid .-From the goast of the real Gen. Sosabowski ------------------ Sosabowski, 1st Pol. Abn. Yes, I know my name is spelled wrong as a member! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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