David Stone Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 Playing VOT as the Germans against the AI with Allies at +25% force strength. The 150mm German Field gun, a couple of HMGs and a machine gun bunker came under fire from ALOT of artillery. I assume it was both spotters for the US 105's and at least one mortar spotter. Talk about ABSOLUTE ANNIHILATION!!! THE HORROR!!! MG Bunker & both HMGs: eliminated. To my amazement, the 150mm gun crew weathered the firestorm for over 2 minutes unscathed but finally took casualties then panicked. I sat in awe at the fury of the barrage and my steadfast german gun crew. awesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 It is a beautiful thing, isn't it? ------------------ "I do like to see the arms and legs fly" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Black Sabot: It is a beautiful thing, isn't it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Beautiful, yes!! Accurate?? Not quite, but much improved over the beta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SS_PanzerLeader Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 So whatexactly is so unrealistic about that Archangel? Are you saying they all should've been dead or they all shouldve been unscathed? Seems to me they took a good pounding and then finally routed whats your beef ? ------------------ SS_PanzerLeader.......out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Borgiax Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 Yep, the nex arty rocks! I LOVE the mega-mushroom when a building collapses! ------------------ Obersturmfuhrer Borgiax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Sabot Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 I agree with SS. By my count the Germans lost about a 1/4 of their firepower in that one barrage with no U.S. losses. Not a bad days work, IMO ------------------ "I do like to see the arms and legs fly" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted May 17, 2000 Share Posted May 17, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SS_PanzerLeader: So whatexactly is so unrealistic about that Archangel? Are you saying they all should've been dead or they all shouldve been unscathed? Seems to me they took a good pounding and then finally routed whats your beef ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't really have a beef I had a comment...we went from ineffective and ineffectual arty to the most asskicking arty in history. Having been attacked by arty, mortars and rockets of all sizes on a regular basis in the real world, I think this modelling is about 25% over-done. These are 105mm...not 155, not 175, not eight inch or naval guns. They are better than the beta, by far. Does that matter?? NO! It doesn't really. It is just a professional opinion... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Mark this as a you can't please everyone. An Arty officer worked with BTS on the model for shells. this officer has been on both the giving as well as receiving end. I will let him mention his name if he so chooses. I personally don't have a problem with Arty. Rune <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ARCHANGEL: I don't really have a beef I had a comment...we went from ineffective and ineffectual arty to the most asskicking arty in history. Having been attacked by arty, mortars and rockets of all sizes on a regular basis in the real world, I think this modelling is about 25% over-done. These are 105mm...not 155, not 175, not eight inch or naval guns. They are better than the beta, by far. Does that matter?? NO! It doesn't really. It is just a professional opinion... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rune: Mark this as a you can't please everyone. An Arty officer worked with BTS on the model for shells. this officer has been on both the giving as well as receiving end. I will let him mention his name if he so chooses. I personally don't have a problem with Arty. Rune <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Rune, Yup! You are probably right, can't please everyone, even amongst those of us who did it for real, opinions will vary...that doesn't mean I don't enjoy the game... [This message has been edited by ARCHANGEL (edited 05-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fionn Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Ok, I'm gonna do one of my rare "lay off him he's good people" posts. Archangel is "good people" guys. He thinks arty is overdone, others still probably think it is underdone. Is arty modelling perfect? nope.. Will it probably be tweaked based on the postings of guys with MUCHO real-world experience like Archangel and several of our "on board" artillerists? Yes. Personally I think the arty is just about fine and that you need to see the arty in more battles than just VoT. VoT has left me (someone who has been playing CM for close to a year) shocked at the absolute death-dealing nature of US arty. Generally arty is a lot less "pivotal" than it appears in VoT but the very nature of that scenario makes arty the "God of All " . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 F, I really appreciate the unexpected support. Actually, you hit the nail right on the head regarding the power of arty. I didn't consider it in the context of OTHER scens...that was/is probably a mistake...so I will happily take your advice and await more fire missions before I draw any conclusions. And Stone WAS talking about several FO's targeting him....THAT makes a huge difference too. Thanks Again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rune Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Fionn, Arch, There was no malice in my post, even when I re-read it. Just a honest you can't please everyone, even those that were in combat. I respect Arch's opinion, but wanted him to know that the Arty was well researched. No harm, No foul Rune Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Renaud Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 I love zooming down to view#1 in the enemy positions and experiencing my own arty come in on ususpecting german reinforcments. the horror...the horror... Imagine what 155mm/8" etc will be like...crescendo of doom. Just how big can these exposions get? I'm afraid to see a 15" naval shell. Collapsing buildings blow up like ammo depots now. Rather odd. I would have went with a simple burst of fragments followed by collapse. Also i've got to find that pesky .wav of the GI saying 'forward march' and replace it with homer simpson chanting 'donuts, donuts, donuts'. Ren Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Renaud, Donuts?? LOLOL That's wonderful!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Having never had the pleasure of raining artillery rounds all around me, all I can do is guess that we have it about right. I have seen some pretty ineffective bombardments, but I think if the AI hits you with 2 batteries of 105s and a couple of tubes of 81mm mortars there is going to be some hurt involved. Especially because that hill isn't very well protected and is in perfect view of any FO that doesn't have acute blindness Archangel, out of curiosity (if you don't mind) roughly what was the quality of the guns, FOs, and fire control in general that you experienced? Just curious if you thought you were subjected to skilled bombardments by highly trained crews and well maintained weapons or on the receiving end of a bunch of undertrained teenagers with poorly maintained guns. I'm not sure this has any bearing on anything, but I was just wondering I'd be real curious to hear your opinion about artillery after you get a chance to play lots of differnt battls. In other scenarios I have had entire platoons survive with only minor casuaties from a direct bombardment of something like 105s. Then again, I have had platoons nearly wiped out by 105s as well. Sometimes you eat the shark, sometimes he eats you... Steve [This message has been edited by Big Time Software (edited 05-17-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Steve, The quality varied. Sometimes you got the hell shot outta you, sometimes they were off (luckily). As I said, I wasn't thinking about multiple FO's putting fire on one target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Stone Posted May 18, 2000 Author Share Posted May 18, 2000 To clarify: The barrage fell in the area where the game 'default places' the German Field Gun. Every US spotter must have had a clear LOS to there because a rain of concentrated steel fell on those guys. At +25%, it could have been 3 US 105's and 2 mortars??? When I saw 3 and 4 shells dropping per second I was like-- oh chit!!! I sat shell shocked myself, watching through my pitifully small monitor. And yea, I would have FREAKED!! My greatest astonishment was that the German Gun Crew withstood it for over 2 turns. cold beer needed, Stoner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Big Time Software Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Thanks Archangel. After you get your full copy, and have played around with it for a while, I'd really like to know what your thoughts are on the effectiveness of CM's artillery. Set up your own sceanrios using various different terrain, uhm targets, and different experienced FOs. Then shoot the place up We are always VERY interested in what men like you have to say about our work. Glad you like what you see in the Gold Demo better than the Beta. We try David, I had a tense two turns one time just like that. Like you, pretty much everything that was on the hill was neutralized, but my gun crew hang on. Shells were landing in 3s and 6s all over the place I knew the bugger was hitting me with BOTH mortars and howitzers by the shell impacts. And I thought I might just barely get through it with only one casualty. But then, a round landed far too close and the unit Panicked and ran. I think 2 of them survived the next barrage. Man, I was biting my nails on that one!! Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Frankrad Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 American artillery was absolutely devastating on the Western Front during 1944 and 1945. Of course, most of you know this. I sure hope that CM tries to simulate it for what it WAS, and does not "dumb it down" in the name of "play balance." F. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ARCHANGEL Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Stoner & Steve, I lost an entire German Infantry platoon to that sort of fire. I was sending them around the left flank of VOT. They were already in the woods and behind the US attackers I was getting them ready for a flank attack (which had always worked before)...the Germans were "hiding"...all of a sudden the sky fell....like you said Steve, a variety of differing shell bursts...looked like airbursts amongst them as well...in the first turn about half were killed... during the second turn the remainder were wiped out, save one lonely private who ultimately ran for the rear...I don't think he stopped until he was in Berlin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bullethead Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 While I haven't been shelled as much as Archangel, I do feel qualified to pick one particular nit about CM's modeling that I think will be pretty much universal regardless of the type of shelling in the scenario. This nit isn't with the shelling per se, but with the morale effects the shelling causes. Specifically, I'm bothered by squads panicking and running away en masse in the middle of a bombardment. In my experience, this doesn't happen. Shelling can scare (if it doesn't shake) the living **** outta you, very true, but while you might be blind panicked, you KNOW that if you stand up, you are going to be shredded. So instead of getting up, you try to claw your way deeper into the ground. Sure, an individual or 2 might get up and run, but most guys will stay on their faces. Those who get up are the ones that get killed mostly. So I'd like to suggest for the future that you tweak the handling of morale under shelling. Keep the morale STATES the same, but don't have the squad run away while the bombardment is still ongoing. Once the shelling stops, if they're still freaking, THEN have them run away. ------------------ -Bullethead jtweller@delphi.com WW2 AFV Photos: people.delphi.com/jtweller/tanks/tanks.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP_Bomber Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 U.S. arty can be a pain in the A** if your playing the German side. There I am up on the hill with my brand new Panzer with Sherman shells harmless bouncing off the hull. I was having a field day blowing up Shermans thinking I had nothing to worry about. Next turn I get hit with an a 105 barrage that I couldnt belive. This went on for 3 turns first blowing the tracks off my poor Panzer, then damaging the gun. The crew ended up bailing in the middle of the last barrage. Anyone have any tips on how to help that poor German 150? I have yet for him to make it more then a 2 turns before he's blasted to kingdomcome. That 150 seems to be a real artillery magnet as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Good point, Bullethead. I think your average soldier would be smart enough to not run around (often in the open) while masses of shells are falling all around him. One exception I think would be for troops who are near to good cover (woods, house, etc.), they might well make a dash for safety (relative) outside of the pattern of shells falling (or at least get out from the most concentrated area of shell fall). But infantry who find themselves in pretty good cover I think should usually stay there and cower, even if they happened to be panicked. This, of course, assumes that standing infantry are more vulnerable to artillery in CM than those that are prone. I'm not sure if this is modelled (knowing CM, it probably is ), if it isn't then it wouldn't really hurt them extra if they did run. And there are other factors to consider as well. Are the soldiers taking fire from other enemy units at the same time? If so, then they may well be smart to run so as not to get shredded by the arty and get riddled with bullets from the enemy ground units, too. That has to be factored in also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Cool thread, guys. One nit to pick with Lee's comment about units breaking for cover though. In the case of an artillery bombardment, trees should not be considered "good" cover. Artillery falling among trees tends to airburst. It also tends to splinter the trees. Both tendencies make it more deadly. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Michael emrys Posted May 18, 2000 Share Posted May 18, 2000 Well, I just found out why some of the posts come up twice from time to time. Gotta be careful with those forward and back arrows... Michael [This message has been edited by Michael emrys (edited 05-18-2000).] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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